Leather under a microscope

[spectre6000]

Kangaroo, vegetable tanned, brown

Macro

90x

180x

270x

Edge 90x

Edge 180x

Edge 270x

Different color, different light. There are more of those fat crystals. In this sample, neither of the vertical or horizontal macro features are visible. The grain differentiation might be more visible here due to either the color or the treatment. I wonder if I'm not seeing a thin band of much much finer grain at the top, then an otherwise normally fine grain below that and through the rest. Still, pretty much 100% fine grain compared to the horse or cow, if I'm seeing things correctly here.

 

[Marc mndt]

What is the purpose of this whole exercise? How does this help anyone who's interested in leather jackets? Genuine question.

 

[ton312]

How does this help anyone who's interested in leather jackets?

It doesn't

 

[Monitor]

It does!

It's making me so grossed out with leather that I don't want to wear it anymore.

 

[spectre6000]

If leather jackets are just a style thing for you or a fashion statement or whatever, it probably doesn't mean anything. Feel free to move along. Or stick around for the idle curiosity of it.

I'm a bit more interested in it as a material. I'm either making or having made a custom jacket, and I intend to have it done in the best leather I can. In order to figure out what that is, I need to know what makes leathers better or worse relative to one another. Horse is supposed to be more durable than cow, and there are a lot more surviving vintage horsehide leathers among the jackets I've seen that have captured my interest than any other type of hide. Is that because it's more durable, or were more jackets made in that leather? Is there some intrinsic property of horsehide that is absent or less in cowhide that causes it to be more durable? I don't know. There's a lot of marketing wank and anecdotes out there, but very little hard information. Kangaroo is supposed to be creme de la creme in terms of durability. Same questions are raised, only without any sort of vintage jackets to anecdotally support the assertion.

Would I pay more for horse over cow? Seems to be a common upcharge. Why? So I can say it's horse? Who gives a shit? So I can say I paid more? Even fewer shits available (more eye rolls though). Is there something about it that makes it a better material for a jacket? Now we're talking. That might be worth... $200, or whatever the upcharge is.

For a specific example, say I'm purchasing a jacket from Aero. First jacket on the page showing all the jackets is a 1930s Half Belt. There are 10 leather options, plus "I'll decide later". Aside from color, and images that may differ depending on your monitor settings, there's very little actual information. "Unique" and "luxurious" (a word I'd personally prefer struck from the English language) are noise. Marketing wank nonsense that conveys absolutely nothing, but somehow gets people to buy things supposedly. I've now got a nice sampling of Badalassi hides though, and I can see there's something going on, I guess in the way they're stuffed/fatted/oiled/waxed that makes them look like bacon inside; super dense and solid compared to a lot of other hides. Similar to a lot of the horsehides I've seen, but I'm not sure if that's intrinsic to horsehide and emulated in the Badalassi steer, or just that the horsehides got a similar treatment.

Then there's the statement a few pages back re: a general difficulty discerning horse vs cow with unmarked vintage jackets. I think the arrangement of pores is the answer to that riddle, and it can be seen with pretty minimal magnification.

Bottom line is that this is information that informs the medium. The better you understand it, the better you can navigate it. I might pay more for horse, or I might not. Depends on what I find (as of writing this post, I haven't gone back yet to do the analysis on the latest tranche of samples). This thread was the result of someone asking a question. I have a tool at my disposal that was able to answer it, probably a bit more thoroughly than usual. It also raised more questions though (a sign that you're doing something right in my line of work). I'm just having fun with it, and going where my curiosity takes me. It's a hobby right?

 

[spectre6000]

Just finished going through the latest tranche analysis. Kinda disappointed in horse across the board (though the samples from Shinki and Horween were much better). Kinda impressed with Badalassi. I will absolutely have a kangaroo peel on my bench in the near future!

There's a subjective component here that I don't yet know how to quantify (working on it though!), but the heavily stuffed, bacon-looking leathers feel much more substantial and hard wearing than the less meaty looking examples. My current thought is that I'd take a well stuffed cow over a dry horse. Well stuffed horse is probably best of the conventional lot, but that would require some better side by side analysis than I have the ability/time for at the moment. Kangaroo really has my attention, but options are super limited. To wit, I wasn't expecting the brown sample, and they don't currently advertise any brown hides; just natural and black in varying thicknesses topping out at 1mm, and that may only be in the natural color (which is fine, because that's probably the route I'd go anyway).

@Canuck Panda, what are the odds you can do some of your quick and dirty image manipulation majick and get some side by sides of some of those grain profiles? Maybe by species, and then again by best of breed from each species (dealer's choice)? Hopefully my zoom gaffe doesn't muddy things too much...

 

[Canuck Panda]

For your first jacket, I would suggest to use the "motochap" leather made in the USA. The best ones are from The Hide House in Napa. I know of two brands that also uses this leather and one of them charges close to 2k and more for their jackets now. Horween also makes a similar tannage but charges double the price. The generic brand (hide house) Motochap full grain 3.5oz finished cowhide is as good as it get, money wise.

As for Badalassi, most of their tannage is not really made for garment. Generally speaking stuffed leather is very strong but I would not recommend them for jackets, unless we are talking 1mm to 1.2mm thickness (3oz and under). I had a jacket made from Badalassi Minerva Box at its full 5.75oz (2.3mm) thickness, it was too much for a jacket. The only Badalassi garment specifc tannage I know of are Napa and Napa Lux. Badalassi leather is at least $15 per sf and more for the retail customers, it would make the most sense to find an used Aero Badalassi jacket for much less, have it altered to fit you and you'd still come out on top.

As for Walpier tannery, the price is so close to Badalassi I just ruled it out.

About Maryam tannery, I do have one jacket that I know for sure is made from natty Maryam horsehide. The hide has been slightly shrunken vs the other tanneries, but unless it offers a discount over the other two tried and true, Horween and Shinki, I would not go after it myself. I think for guys in the US, just call up Horween to get some of their horsehide would be your best bet.

As for Kangaroo hides, they are generally too small, and will limit what you can do pattern/design wise. I went to look at the race suits made of roo leather and it's really only partial panels mixed with tech fabric and plastic bits. I have since given up on it. It's like carbon fiber, only makes a tiny bit of difference on the race track but un noticeable on public roads.

Yeah Motochap is what I would suggest for your first build. It would be easier to sew through than stuffed hides like CXL or thinned down Badalassi and cost less money and same strength imo. Save the fancier more expensive leather for when you get the hang of the it otherwise a lot of it would end up in the bin and that gets quite costly.

 

[spectre6000]

This would probably be better in the pattern thread, but I prefer conversations to be organic. My first jacket will probably be made from vinyl table cloth material. Second will be whatever is cheap from Tandy or similar. Third, assuming the other two go well, might be something fun and interesting. First though, I'm hoping to start a non-destructive pattern pull off that Vanson this weekend. Then I'll blow it apart, and check my work against the deconstructed jacket. Still trying to gather up enough film plastic packing material to finish the dress form, and that seems like a productive use of time in the interim. The last piece of that puzzle will be to resize the Vanson pattern to actually fit me. Then we're back to the vinyl table cloth test piece part of the conversation. My aims on the kangaroo peel are not necessarily jacket related. I always have a handful of leather projects on the back burner, and I want to check it out as a material. Might be something like a wallet to start. Maybe a tool roll for some brace bits. I'll mess around with it to see how it takes oils, how the color changes with sun exposure, how it takes dyes, etc.

 

[Eagledog]

What is this? New Aero Irvin jacket with shearling poking out the opposite side. Is this normal? Is it OK? Some can be pulled out and some are stuck. It covers the entire garment.

 

[Eagledog]

One more picture of this condition. Difficult to get a clear view with my phone.

 

[spectre6000]

No idea. Looks like the the hide is thin enough that there are holes through it, and the hair is coming through? That's a WAG. Contact Aero.

 

[JMax]

What is this? New Aero Irvin jacket with shearling poking out the opposite side. Is this normal? Is it OK? Some can be pulled out and some are stuck. It covers the entire garment.

Post this in the Ask a Question, Get an Answer thread.