Knockoffs?

[tonyb]

^^^^^
An outfit called therealreal sells, as its name suggests, genuine name brand stuff, used. I was intrigued by a large Nelson bubble lamp, the one shaped like a flying saucer, on offer there for a steal of a price. So I was set to buy it, entered my name and address and was about to get to the part where you enter the debit card number when I looked to shipping costs, which they listed at 900 and some bucks.

It annoyed me they they would waste my time that way. That shipping cost was as absurd as it was obviously an underhanded way to get the price the seller wanted.

 

[Edward]

^^^^^
An outfit called therealreal sells, as its name suggests, genuine name brand stuff, used. I was intrigued by a large Nelson bubble lamp, the one shaped like a flying saucer, on offer there for a steal of a price. So I was set to buy it, entered my name and address and was about to get to the part where you enter the debit card number when I looked to shipping costs, which they listed at 900 and some bucks.

It annoyed me they they would waste my time that way. That shipping cost was as absurd as it was obviously an underhanded way to get the price the seller wanted.

This used to be a common practice on eBay with a lot of bulk-sellers in the Far East. eBay bumped it off in the end after lots of complaints. Obviously, it's a good way of ensuring that even if a buyer does return something you don't have to shell out more than pennies, because the rest was paid for shipping.... It's basically fraud in many instances, though the kicker for eBay was that it was also a way of getting round eBay's fees, as those are charged as a chunk of what is paid for the item, not postage.

 

[tonyb]

^^^^^
If history has taught us anything, it’s that if there’s a dishonest buck to be made, someone will give it a try.

 

[tonyb]

If you can’t beat ‘em?

https://businessofhome.com/articles/the-best-way-to-fight-knockoffs-dupe-yourself

A couple three or four years ago at a McDonald‘s there were chairs that appeared to be of the same form and dimensions as Eames shell chairs, but in plastic rather than the fiberglass of the originals. I turned one over and saw the Eames name molded into the plastic material.

It turns out that “name” designers are putting those names on the products themselves, often on the lower-end versions. People will indeed pay for the name. Target has been doing that for years (decades?) now — selling products by big-name designers and manufacturers (Michael Graves, Isaac Mizrahi, Marimekko, etc.) at much lower prices (and quality?) than their big-ticket offerings.

It’s a routine practice at the outlet malls now. The lower-priced goods found there aren’t necessarily lesser versions, but they often are.

 

[Olumin]

This is my view, I do not claim it is indisputable fact. In order to understand "fakes" we have to look at the underlying causes:

The "problem" are not the "fakes", but the people buying them to impress others. In my mind that’s the issue. Why are we buying or doing something to impress others? Why do we still think that our worth or happiness are dependent on other people? Why do we never grow up and keep chasing after the approval of others? Why are we still stuck in the mentality of our prehistoric ancestors? Why can we not accept ourselves the way we are? That’s the insanity, and that’s the root cause.

As usual we like to point the finger at anyone but ourselves to avoid taking responsibility, but we are just as responsible. We are the "problem", not the products and services that result from our needs. They are merely a symptom, not the cause.

Fakes themselves are simply an industry and business like any other, and they make billions of dollars. If people weren't buying them, there would be no market for it. What needs to be changed is people’s minds; then the fakes will disappear as well.


You might say: But what about people buying fakes simply because they offer better value? What if they dont even care abot the brand?

Then we have to ask ourselves: Why is it that the original is such "bad value"? Why is it that we are willing to pay so much extra simply for a brand name or designer? Is the company at fault for pricing their luxury product this way, or are we at fault for paying it? Are we paying a premium to feel like we are "part of the club"? To show off to others? To convince ourselves that we have "made it"? Because the product is associated with a certain image we want for ourselves? Where lies the root cause?


If it is because of low supply & high demand; why does the high demand exist for such a non essential good? Why do we feel like we "need" this thing so much that we are willing to pay a high premium or even resort to buying a fake? Why do we think owing this thing will make us happy? Can we not also be happy without it? Why do we define ourselves through our belongins, why do we identify with them? So much so that we are willing to "go to war" with people who have different opinions on what brand is "best".

If we did not have any of these needs, would we still pay the price these items demand? Is it justified for the materials, labour and/or service offered? Any company able to produce "fakes" of comparable quality to the original would then be better off making their own design to start with. No one would think of buying "knock-offs" to convince others they are real; and no one would be paying insane premiums for products we don’t need.


What about a company making a copy or a similar design at a lower price (but similar, same or even better in quality) because lower wages in that country enable it?

If the lower price of a product is due a difference in wages (say, between Canada and Pakistan), what are the conditions in these cultures and societies that makes people tolerate such low wages? Is it due to a lower cost of living? Do the people in these regions have the same opportunities & prosperity we have? If not, do they want to? Are these conditions something we want to support? Will continuing to support these systems bring about "positive" change and more abundance for everyone, or does it simply enable dysfunctional and self-destructive behaviors and institutions? Long term vs short term gains.

Why do people resort to copying others designs and ideas to beginn with? Does it not result from the believe that there isn’t enough? If we didn’t believe in lack or scarcity, would people still feel the need to steal others work? These believes can not be changes overnight, they are deep rooted behaviours born out of millions of years of survival.


There is nothing wrong with wanting nice things. But if we can reach a mindset where we can also be happy with nothing, then we won’t feel like we need those things. There is a great quote: "Minimalism is not about owning nothing, it is about nothing owning you."

Phew, OK, I think im done now. Take all this as just one more point of view. If it doesnt agree with you, feel free to disregard it. There are no right or wrong answers to such questions.

 

[tonyb]

People like their material comforts, and people prefer better looking things over less good looking things. If anything is universal, it is that. And thank the god(s) of your choice for it. It’s the pursuit of that for which we have no immediate “need” that has fueled all human progress.

 

[Trenchfriend]

I must say, I'm surprised about my cheap Zippo-knockoff from Champ. It just works. And the manufacturing quality is not much far from Zippo.

 

[Olumin]

People like their material comforts, and people prefer better looking things over less good looking things. If anything is universal, it is that. And thank the god(s) of your choice for it. It’s the pursuit of that for which we have no immediate “need” that has fueled all human progress.

I wont disagree with you. I dont believe that the desire for a good life & good things are a problem. To desire without need. One might call that "expression motivated thinking", which is a hallmark of all post scarcity civilizations.

In more advanced cultures, the motivation for technological progress would be to reduce the things one needs to do, so one can focus on what one wants to do. After that its about creating the most abundance & opportunities for everyone, as this increases the ways in which one can express. In other words, the goal is self expression. The primary needs for survival are satisfied rather easily, anything beyond that serves the goal of self realization. Keep in mind that it is of course possible to have a advanced culture without advanced technology.

In our species, the need for survival & security has, more often then not, become our primary driving factor in and of itself. As such our minds & the things that drive us remain stuck in the stone age. We have progressed much technologically, but very little mentally. But were getting there.

The primary motivation of all things, on the highest (and most fundamental) level, is self expression & realization. As a culture advances, so do the things that bring them satisfaction. From merely satisfying the needs of survival, to satisfying the desires of the soul. There is nothing wrong with physical comforts & security, but they by themselves can not provide lasting fulfilment, because that can only ever be found within. This is also why technology is still important, because without it, we would not have time to focus on expressing ourselves due to being caught up in survival. So, enjoy all the nice things & comforts, enjoy them, simply dont think that they alone will make you happy. The issue arises when we confuse the path with the destination

 

[tonyb]

Is happiness all it’s cracked up to be? Some (most?) people’s idea of happiness is little more than the mother of complacency.

I find a hearty meal much more satisfying if I’ve first worked up a healthy appetite.

“Success” has been the ruin of many a once-dynamic person.

 

[tonyb]

As to shiny new things …

The new wears off quickly. It does for me, anyway. It’s knowing this that keeps my coveting of such things in check.

 

[Olumin]

That is a very complex topic, and one which has been debated for millennia. I believe it deserves a good answer, but it will be my answer. Again, I do not disagree with what you wrote.

The idea that one first has to suffer or work hard to be happy is something told to us by our parents & the world around us. Dessert only after dinner, playing outside only after homework, games only after chores, money only after hard work. We are programmed from childhood into this belief. We believe, to our core, we do not "deserve" happiness without hard work. But who has the authority to tell us what we "deserve"?

It is the pursuit of happiness in something outside of ourselves that brings ruin, not happiness itself. Joy is not something to be reached or accomplished, it is intrinsic to our nature. It is something that is chosen, not accomplished. It is a state of mind.

What is success? To many is it a belief taken on from outside. To be rich is to be successful. To have a good-looking wife. To have an expensive car. A nice house. A happy family. Power over others. Being at "the top". But is that really something you want, or something someone else told you you should want?

But what if something is not done to bring about happiness; but something is done because one is happy? When action is taken from a place of joy & inner satisfaction, it is done to express that state of mind in physical form. When life is lived in pursuit of happiness, it is a fruitless pursuit. Nothing is ever enough. Life is only lived in anticipation of the next thing to bring temporary satisfaction. The present moment is the enemy. And so, we live our lives in constant anxiety and fear. And then, when we have reached what other deem "success", when we have "made it", we stagnate. All we are left with is our deep inner sense of dissatisfaction. Where did I go wrong? Should I not be happy now?

But happiness is not the goal, because happiness cannot be obtained. It is already within us. It can always be expressed; it does not have to be reached.

So, what is the goal? For a long time, it was survival. We are animals of earth, and life on earth is based on survival. It is what gave our lives meaning. But now that we have become the masters of survival, this meaning is disappearing from our lives. We feel an emptiness. What else is there? Where is the challenge? Expression. Self realization. To find and express who we really are. Not who someone else wants us to be.

When we see master craftsmen or artists, it is not merely their job or livelihood, It is who they are! They are expressing themselves through their work. When something is done with passion, you are expressing yourself. The action itself does not matter. Technically, everything is a form of self expression, we can not not express ourselves. But to do something with enthusiasm means to express your truest innermost self.

There will be a time in the future where we will wake up in the morning and all that will be on our minds is: "Who do I want to be today?". And then we will go out and do it. Not because it will make us happy, but because this is simply who we are.

 

[tonyb]

This is becoming tedious.

 

[Olumin]

No problem at all. Then lets leave it at this.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

No problem at all. Then lets leave it at this.

Can we hold you to that?
Hypothetical question.
No need to answer.
And it’s “let’s”.
B

 

[BobHufford]

Then you have the case of Gustav Stickley who not only had a company which built and continues to build furniture to his designs, he also published books of his plans and encouraged people to build them for themselves. What one made would not be a genuine Stickley but it would have the quality of his design with the addition of one's own skill. This latter bit was part of the Craftsman ethos of having a hand in shaping one's surrounding.

Then you have the whole gamut of craftsman style furniture. Some is very well built using good quality materials such as fumed oak and full-tenon joinery. And others little better than particle board and printed veneer. This is where I think the distinction between reproduction and knock-off exists.