Just when you think you'd heard the worst of it ...

[Monsoon]

Since the anniversary of the Doolittle Raid is 18 April, here's an interesting article about what happened to the Chinese after they helped the Airmen:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...anese-attack-doolittle-raid-180955001/?no-ist

 

[Big J]

Monsoon, that's a good article. Thank you for posting.
When I was in China a few years back doing some research on the occupation and resistance, I was always happily surprized to find that no matter whatever tensions between the US and China now at an official level, ordinary people have a pretty good idea about, and good image of things like the Flying Tigers and US assistance in the war.

Sure, there were terrible reprisals for the Doolittle raid, but let's not kid ourselves, the Japanese don't have a stellar record of behaving humanely in occupation. They would have killed those people eventually anyway under the 'Three All's policy that is alluded to in the article you linked;
1. Take all.
2. Kill all.
3. Burn all.

That is to say that the policy was to take all resources you can, kill all the locals you don't need for labor, burn everything else.

The end- defeating the Japanese- completely justified the means, IMHO.

 

[Monsoon]

Big J:

Friends of mine told me that if you are in China and want to break the ice with people there, just bring up the Flying Tigers. The Chinese love that unit!

One thing about the Japanese, Germans and the end of the war everyone has to keep in mind is summed up in some dialogue in the movie "Fury".

Brad Pitt and Jason Issacs (Captain Waggoner) are going over operations and Issacs is getting frustrated about things.

Captain Waggoner: Why don't they just give up?

Wardaddy: Would you?


Some people, regardless of the situation, won't ever give up.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I thought Japan still had one of the highest standards of living in the world and was practically as well off as ever, just not doing as well compared to China and Singapore?

Japan's "Lost Decade" has been going for almost twenty years now.

 

[Big J]

Actually, there's a really good exhibition at the battleship Missouri right now about the kamikaze, with many artifacts from the kamikaze museum at Chiran.
It shows how most of the volunteer pilots were 'volunteered' with no say in the matter, and how the public were forced to support it out of fear of the secret police.
It's a frightening testament to the inhumanity of policy makers to thier citizens.

 

[Big J]

Big J:

Friends of mine told me that if you are in China and want to break the ice with people there, just bring up the Flying Tigers. The Chinese love that unit!

One thing about the Japanese, Germans and the end of the war everyone has to keep in mind is summed up in some dialogue in the movie "Fury".

Brad Pitt and Jason Issacs (Captain Waggoner) are going over operations and Issacs is getting frustrated about things.

Captain Waggoner: Why don't they just give up?

Wardaddy: Would you?


Some people, regardless of the situation, won't ever give up.

Monsoon, I wore my Aero A-2 with 23rd FG patches when I was in China. So many people came up to me and asked about it, and so many of them had stories to share about a relative or someone they knew.
It's almost impossible to verify most of those anecdotes, but taken together, as an article of culture, it's a pretty impressive cultural legacy that has survived the cold war.

Just goes to show that that kind of grass roots, personal contact has a stronger and longer lasting effect than the 'official' government narrative.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

Just absolutely awful. We all know war is terrible, and terrible things happen, but not like that. There's no excuse for that kind of evil.

 

[Treetopflyer]

Even before the U.S. was involved in the war, the Nanking Massacre took place in December of 1937. I've seen film footage and photographs, along with eye witness accounts. Those images will stay with me for life. I can't even imagine having seen those events real time and not have nightmares.

 

[LizzieMaine]

There were mass boycotts against Japanese goods in the United States in the wake of the incidents of 1937. Between Nanking and the bombing of Shanghai, thinking Americans of the time were very well aware of what Japan was trying to do in China. Opposition to Japanese imperialism stood firm alongside anti-Fascism in the positions of Interventionists during the late thirties, while the Isolationists went out of their way to paper over or rationalize what was really going on.

 

[AmateisGal]

I don't want to get into a a big thing so will just say, if revisionism has covered up Japanese racism it has gone the opposite way with Germany. A lot of wartime documents ended up in the Soviet sphere and have only been available to western historians for a few years. David Irving has done more original research than anyone else. Ironically, he gets called a holocaust denier even though he is the guy who documented it and proved it really took place, although not in the way we have been led to believe by mainstream media.

Irving gets called a Holocaust denier because that's exactly what he is.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Irving gets called a Holocaust denier because that's exactly what he is.

Have you seen the reports he tracked down from official German sources during the war giving statistics on the extermination of jews, gypsies and other undesirables? Or the speech Heinrich Himmler gave taking credit for killing more than a million jews in secret extermination camps in Poland? He not only has a transcript of the speech but a wire recording. He backs this up with independent verification from other people's diaries and other sources.

Some "denier".

By the way.... one of the witnesses who testified against Irving at his famous libel trial has since admitted, on video, that he was lying in other words, committed perjurery.

 

[AmateisGal]

He denies the existence of the gas chambers.

 

[AmateisGal]

Irving did a lot of research; on that we are agreed. Unfortunately, he took a turn for the worse some time ago and yes, he is most definitely a Holocaust denier. When you side with neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, deny the existence of the gas chambers, and other assorted crap, then yes, he is a denier.

I suggest reading Sir Richard Evan's book, Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial.

Remember, during this trial, the burden was on Lipstadt to prove her claim. She did so.

 

[Big J]

Have you seen the reports he tracked down from official German sources during the war giving statistics on the extermination of jews, gypsies and other undesirables? Or the speech Heinrich Himmler gave taking credit for killing more than a million jews in secret extermination camps in Poland? He not only has a transcript of the speech but a wire recording. He backs this up with independent verification from other people's diaries and other sources.

Some "denier".

By the way.... one of the witnesses who testified against Irving at his famous libel trial has since admitted, on video, that he was lying in other words, committed perjurery.

Stanley, all I know about Irving was that he was the face of the British National Party, which doesn't induce me to support him by buying his books.

 

[Stand By]

Nah, I already got my PhD doing this sort of stuff.
The most interesting thing for me is how opinions vary across the age demographic.
Those with living memory of the war are the most anti-war, anti-nationalistic, and pro-American.
The generation that grew up in the rubble includes some of Japan's most unapologetic revisionists.
The generation that grew up during the 60's is more anti-American because of Japan's role for US forces during Vietnam.
The generation that grew up in the 70's got rich. They don't really care one way or another.
The generation that grew up in the 80's has an overwhelming sense of mis-placed entitlement; Japan's economy became #2, and they were expecting to become #1! They were fed a steady drip-drip of 'We lost the war, but won the peace' messages.
The generation that grew up in the 90's knows only the bursting of the Japanese economic 'bubble', and a sense of malaise.
The generations of this century know nothing but the fact that Japan had an empire, and had a great economy and standard of living, but now
that's all gone, and asian neighbors haven't forgotten that Japan done them wrong. In a sense, the post-2000 popularity of revisionist figures and thinking represents a huge indulgence of 'what if' wishful thinking as an expression of insecurity about Japan's economic, political, and military place in the world.

I have to say, this has proved a most insightful thread so far! I put the OT up to show others the link and have ended up learning sooo much more myself! Thanks to all.

Your insights are truly interesting, Big J - and may I ask a question please?
Some years ago (early noughties), a couple of friends of mine visited Japan and when they got back to the UK, I asked them about it - and they said that they were shocked by how tightly-wound the men were. They commented about young business men in very smart business suits getting completely sloshed after work - as in falling-down drunk in the street and making a complete disgrace of themselves - and how they'd look all dignified on the subways but so many would be reading manga comics that were ultra-violent, with sexual violence to women. They said it was such a stark dichotomy in culture of dignified appearance versus base behaviour … I've never forgotten that conversation from so long ago and I wonder, would you say their observations were accurate, and if so, can you shed any light on that? Please PM me if you think it inappropriate to post here.
Thanks!

 

[Stanley Doble]

He denies the existence of the gas chambers.

Not quite true. German authorities admit the gas chambers shown to tourists were not built until after the war, or were not used as gas chambers during the war.

The records from Auschwitz finally turned up behind the iron curtain. They contain records of all deaths, there were between 60,000 and 70,000 mostly from natural causes.

The death camps were far away to the east. They were built secretly, were operated secretly, and when they were through they were torn down and everything taken away and the sites turned into farm land. But Irving tracked down the records and proved they were there, and that more than a million people were killed.

He has a report from official German statistical records, documenting 1.2 million deaths in one year. But the death camps operated for 2 years. This leads him to believe that 2.5 million were killed although he has not yet tracked down the documentation for the second year.

As for the experts who testified against him I do not consider them very reliable. One of them brought out a book carefully researching the deaths from the firebombing of Dresden which was the subject of Irving's first book. This author found the records of every body recovered from what was literally a holocaust. They amounted to between 20,000 and 25,000.

He claimed this proved Irving's claims were exaggerated, as he said 200,000 died. Actually he said 120,000. And the fact that only 20,000 bodies were recovered does not prove that others were not burned to ashes. In fact thousands were burned to ashes. Experts calculate temperatures reached 2000 degrees.

 

[Big J]

I have to say, this has proved a most insightful thread so far! I put the OT up to show others the link and have ended up learning sooo much more myself! Thanks to all.

Your insights are truly interesting, Big J - and may I ask a question please?
Some years ago (early noughties), a couple of friends of mine visited Japan and when they got back to the UK, I asked them about it - and they said that they were shocked by how tightly-wound the men were. They commented about young business men in very smart business suits getting completely sloshed after work - as in falling-down drunk in the street and making a complete disgrace of themselves - and how they'd look all dignified on the subways but so many would be reading manga comics that were ultra-violent, with sexual violence to women. They said it was such a stark dichotomy in culture of dignified appearance versus base behaviour … I've never forgotten that conversation from so long ago and I wonder, would you say their observations were accurate, and if so, can you shed any light on that? Please PM me if you think it inappropriate to post here.
Thanks!

Hi,
I'm just off to work, but when I get home I'll PM you so I don't offend anyone.

 

[AmateisGal]

Not quite true. German authorities admit the gas chambers shown to tourists were not built until after the war, or were not used as gas chambers during the war.

The records from Auschwitz finally turned up behind the iron curtain. They contain records of all deaths, there were between 60,000 and 70,000 mostly from natural causes.

The death camps were far away to the east. They were built secretly, were operated secretly, and when they were through they were torn down and everything taken away and the sites turned into farm land. But Irving tracked down the records and proved they were there, and that more than a million people were killed.

He has a report from official German statistical records, documenting 1.2 million deaths in one year. But the death camps operated for 2 years. This leads him to believe that 2.5 million were killed although he has not yet tracked down the documentation for the second year.

As for the experts who testified against him I do not consider them very reliable. One of them brought out a book carefully researching the deaths from the firebombing of Dresden which was the subject of Irving's first book. This author found the records of every body recovered from what was literally a holocaust. They amounted to between 20,000 and 25,000.

He claimed this proved Irving's claims were exaggerated, as he said 200,000 died. Actually he said 120,000. And the fact that only 20,000 bodies were recovered does not prove that others were not burned to ashes. In fact thousands were burned to ashes. Experts calculate temperatures reached 2000 degrees.

Sir Richard Evans is a very distinguished historian of World War II. I would trust his word far and above David Irving's any day of the week. Again, read his discussion of the trial and you will see how he systematically dismantles Irving's work.

The historical evidence clearly points to gas chambers being used during the war at Auschwitz. To deny this is quite simply absurd.

In my book, Irving's relationship to neo-Nazis organizations and his virulent anti-Semitism disqualify him from having any validity within the historical community. And that's all I'm going to say on the subject because I don't want this thread to get de-railed.

 

[Big J]

Sir Richard Evans is a very distinguished historian of World War II. I would trust his word far and above David Irving's any day of the week. Again, read his discussion of the trial and you will see how he systematically dismantles Irving's work.

The historical evidence clearly points to gas chambers being used during the war at Auschwitz. To deny this is quite simply absurd.

In my book, Irving's relationship to neo-Nazis organizations and his virulent anti-Semitism disqualify him from having any validity within the historical community. And that's all I'm going to say on the subject because I don't want this thread to get de-railed.

I'm going to have to agree with you about Irving.

 

[pawineguy]

I'm going to have to agree with you about Irving.

+2, is there really serious debate anymore about Irving? "Hitler's War" was bad enough before he joined the denier circuit.