Joseph Goebbels' secretary at 105: "We really didn't know anything."

[scotrace]

Interesting read. Probably the last surviving member of the inner circle.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...omsel-nazi-joseph-goebbels-propaganda-machine

 

[LizzieMaine]

“Those people nowadays who say they would have stood up against the Nazis – I believe they are sincere in meaning that, but believe me, most of them wouldn’t have.”

 

[Frunobulax]

Interesting. A first-hand interview with the banality of evil.

 

[scotrace]

70 years beyond it, from the comfort of our chairs, we can pluck a person out of context and hold them up to sharp criticism, and indeed, the crimes of that time and place are ageless. They were crimes in 1945, and they'll be crimes in 4545.
What would we have done, were we not a Jew, a Catholic, a communist, infirm or homosexual or of an unapproved intellectual bent when faced with a choice of join or live at the fringe in poverty, or even surrender your life? Plenty of people chose the latter, but of those who joined and maintained a life of relative safety and comfort until the end of the war and allied retribution-- what would we have done? Would we refuse to be participants in evil and speak out, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer did? Or join and be safe, as the woman in this article chose to do? May we never be faced with that choice, any of us.

 

[scotrace]

We found it absolutely chilling to read of Goebbels' private charm, fastidious dress and politeness. Evil wears many faces, clean, dirty, handsome and ugly.

 

[TimeWarpWife]

What I find chilling is the way she fondly romanticizes those days as if they are cheery, wonderful times she's remembering. Another reason I find it impossible to believe she didn't know what was going on is the way she comes across as a still proud, card-carrying unrepentant Nazi trying to deny her part in what went on. She's just like the towns people who denied knowing what was going on at Buchenwald. They knew.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The thing is, the early years of the Nazi regime *were* cheery, romantic times for a great many people. Germany was on the move, the flags were waving, patriotism was running high, the economy was booming. The price they paid for that feeling of success and prosperity was not seeing what they didn't want to see -- or seeing and saying "well, that's not my problem, is it?"

Nazi Germany couldn't have happened without the support, whether active or tacit, of ordinary people, regular everyday folks who loved their kids, patted their dogs, went to church, were kind to random strangers, and thought of themselves as good, honest, noble citizens. And that's what makes it terrifying.

 

[AmateisGal]

The thing is, the early years of the Nazi regime *were* cheery, romantic times for a great many people. Germany was on the move, the flags were waving, patriotism was running high, the economy was booming. The price they paid for that feeling of success and prosperity was not seeing what they didn't want to see -- or seeing and saying "well, that's not my problem, is it?"

Nazi Germany couldn't have happened without the support, whether active or tacit, of ordinary people, regular everyday folks who loved their kids, patted their dogs, went to church, were kind to random strangers, and thought of themselves as good, honest, noble citizens. And that's what makes it terrifying.

^^^THIS.

 

[AmateisGal]

70 years beyond it, from the comfort of our chairs, we can pluck a person out of context and hold them up to sharp criticism, and indeed, the crimes of that time and place are ageless. They were crimes in 1945, and they'll be crimes in 4545.
What would we have done, were we not a Jew, a Catholic, a communist, infirm or homosexual or of an unapproved intellectual bent when faced with a choice of join or live at the fringe in poverty, or even surrender your life? Plenty of people chose the latter, but of those who joined and maintained a life of relative safety and comfort until the end of the war and allied retribution-- what would we have done? Would we refuse to be participants in evil and speak out, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer did? Or join and be safe, as the woman in this article chose to do? May we never be faced with that choice, any of us.

I read this yesterday - absolutely chilling, yet I wasn't too surprised by her lack of regret and guilt.

I agree 100% with you, Scott. It's incredibly easy for us to think we would have stood up to the Nazi regime, would have *done something* instead of blindly letting it happen right under our noses. Trying to understand why people allowed, and indeed, wanted the Third Reich to succeed is, to my thinking, the reason why Nazi Germany continues to be voraciously studied. We can't wrap our minds around it, how a country with such a high culture, could do this. I hope it continues to be studied because it is, indeed, a warning from history as the popular 1997 BBC documentary of the same name so adroitly shows.

 

[ChiTownScion]

The thing is, the early years of the Nazi regime *were* cheery, romantic times for a great many people. Germany was on the move, the flags were waving, patriotism was running high, the economy was booming. The price they paid for that feeling of success and prosperity was not seeing what they didn't want to see -- or seeing and saying "well, that's not my problem, is it?"

Nazi Germany couldn't have happened without the support, whether active or tacit, of ordinary people, regular everyday folks who loved their kids, patted their dogs, went to church, were kind to random strangers, and thought of themselves as good, honest, noble citizens. And that's what makes it terrifying.

That was the irony and the tragedy of it. This was not some backward, ignorant nation. This was arguably the most educated and technologically advanced of nations, the nation of Beethoven, Schiller, and Goethe. That it could happen in Germany- because its population had been driven to desperation - sent the message that it can happen anywhere.

 

[Stearmen]

PBS, had a great documentary called My NAZI Legacy. It was about the sons of Hans Frank and Otto Von Wachter. Horst Wachter refused to believe his father had anything to do with the Holocaust! On the other hand, Niklas Frank, so hated his Father, I think it ruined his life. Very worth while film!

 

[TimeWarpWife]

I watched a documentary that stated Goering's great-niece had herself sterilized so she wouldn't be able to have any children because she feared they might turn out to be monsters. Also, it looks like the grandsons of Hitler's half-brother, who happen to be living in the U.S., have decided to let the bloodline die out by not leaving any children either. Frankly, I don't blame them. I couldn't imagine the psychological damage it could do to someone knowing their notoriously famous relative is still so hated some 70+ years later.

 

[scotrace]

I have strong feelings about judgements out-of-context, so this is a struggle for me, and as AmateisGal points out, is part of why I keep studying this era.
As an illustration, how do you pull a Louisiana sugar plantation owner out of his 1840 context and judge him harshly for being a bigot without taking the context of time and place into account? In 2016, it's clear that the culture and mindset and economic realities of 1840 Lousisana encouraged the particularly awful and evil practice of slavery, and slavery, no matter the context, is evil. In 1840, the guy was just doing what everyone in his circumstances, time and place was doing, without much thought given to our later feelings about the matter.
I wasn't a German living in Germany in 1939 (or an Italian, or a Japanese, for that matter). I wasn't there. I can understand how someone could be sucked into the scenario Lizzie describes. I like to think I would have been more like Bonhoeffer, less like Hanna Schmidt of The Reader, but there's no way to know.
I know I do NOT want to be held accountable to 23rd century standards for something I might be doing now that is a cultural norm but is considered villainy in 2216.
It's a quandary. But Goebbels' card-carrying, paid up secretary, surely, really, absolutely must have known something of what was happening. At least at the end, when the crumbling Reich's hierarchy was so actively destroying the records of their suddenly all-too-apparently evil deeds.
It's not for me to judge her life or choices. But surely she'll answer soon.

 

[Frunobulax]

I think her "fond" memories and rationalizations are nothing more than a defense mechanism. It may be impossible for her to confront the evil she was a part of.

 

[scotrace]

^^^THIS.

YES! Snaps it right into perspective.

 

[LizzieMaine]

There are plenty of Americans who remember 1947-55 as cheery, wonderful times -- because they weren't people hounded out of their jobs and homes or even to suicide because of their non-conforming political beliefs. Not equating the Red Scare with the Holocaust, but a similar mindset was at work. How many people picked up their paper one morning and read about the deaths of Don Hollenbeck or Philip Loeb and said to themselves, "hmph, dirty Commies, it serves them right," and went right on eating their Maltex and their raisin toast like all was well with the world? How far removed is that attitude, psychologically, from "Juden Raus?"

The attitude of "it's not me, it's Them, and we must protect ourselves against Them" is still rampant in today's world if you take a close and honest look around. By isolating Nazi Germany in our minds as this aberrant Colossus of Evil, we convince ourselves it could never happen again because we're way past that. But --- *are we?*

 

[Harp]

I have strong feelings about judgements out-of-context, so this is a struggle for me... is part of why I keep studying this era.

A conversation with a former German commando while I was living in Munich has always stuck in memory. He remarked that Nazi atrocities were deplorable,
and offered no defense for the Holocaust. But he added that there were British concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer War and pointed out American Vietnam issues
such as the My Lai massacre.

 

[Frunobulax]

There are plenty of Americans who remember 1947-55 as cheery, wonderful times -- because they weren't people hounded out of their jobs and homes or even to suicide because of their non-conforming political beliefs. Not equating the Red Scare with the Holocaust, but a similar mindset was at work. How many people picked up their paper one morning and read about the deaths of Don Hollenbeck or Philip Loeb and said to themselves, "hmph, dirty Commies, it serves them right," and went right on eating their Maltex and their raisin toast like all was well with the world? How far removed is that attitude, psychologically, from "Juden Raus?"

The attitude of "it's not me, it's Them, and we must protect ourselves against Them" is still rampant in today's world if you take a close and honest look around. By isolating Nazi Germany in our minds as this aberrant Colossus of Evil, we convince ourselves it could never happen again because we're way past that. But --- *are we?*

Happening even as we speak. People having their businesses boycotted and fined for their religious beliefs, being run out of their jobs for having an opinion contrary to the Newspeak, being physically attacked for their beliefs. This leads to a chill where people aren't comfortable in their own skin.

A conversation with a former German commando while I was living in Munich has always stuck in memory. He remarked that Nazi atrocities were deplorable,
and offered no defense for the Holocaust. But he added that there were British concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer War and pointed out American Vietnam issues
such as the My Lai massacre.

My Lai was an aberration. The Holocaust was policy.

 

[Harp]

My Lai was an aberration. The Holocaust was policy.

Of course. However his remarks were germane and offered in context of the conversation.

 

[MikeKardec]

The attitude of "it's not me, it's Them, and we must protect ourselves against Them" is still rampant in today's world if you take a close and honest look around. By isolating Nazi Germany in our minds as this aberrant Colossus of Evil, we convince ourselves it could never happen again because we're way past that. But --- *are we?*

Absolutely! Right now there are a number of places around the world where BOTH sides are taking on this behavior.

Far too many people CHOOSE (as the Nazis did with the Jews) an enemy and insist that they are evil and anti and prejudiced and lower than human, far too many people seem to want this more than peace or tolerance or long term happiness. I can't tell you all how many times I have listened to someone espousing their political convictions and how they have been damaged or threatened and realized to my horror that they actually love and are deeply invested in their anger and indignation. The problem is these pressures often backfire (like half the world going to war against you).

History is like those long thin balloons that clowns twist into the form of dog's and elephants and such ... any time you squeeze it in one place it bulges out in another. The middle way, even if it means tolerating some things you don't like is the only way to avoid that bulge and potential bursting elsewhere!