It's 1987 & the AF is to reissue the A-2. What would YOU do?

[Nighthawk]

For the basics (most of you have likely already read the following link):
http://www.afa.org/magazine/1993/0993jacket.asp

I know we often harp on about how 'inaccurate' the modern USAF A-2 is, so what would YOU have done when it was decided to reissue the legendary A-2 in the late 1980's. Some options for you all to consider:

1. Don't reissue the A-2 at all.
---a. This could entail no changes to the USAF uniform lineup
---b. Or, you could start from scratch and design a brand new jacket not based on the A-2 at all
2. Go with what they picked
---a. Originally this was by Cooper
---b. Later by other manufacturers
---c. This is seal goatskin with a roomy fit
---d. Patches are velcroed (only nametag and major command allowed)
---e. Jackets aren't allowed to be painted
3. Update the jacket
---a. This could entail inside pockets
---b. This also could entail 'handwarmers'
---c. Apparently, something like this was done in the 90's
4. High quality jacket but not reproducing a specific contract
---a. This would be akin to one of Eastman's own label jackets
5. Extremely accurate repro.
---a. Do you pick a single contract or use multiple original contracts to reproduce?
---b. Horsehide or goatskin?
---c. Seal or russett in color?
---d. Big drawback would be the cost
---e. Would you allow patches to be sewn/painted on?
---f. Would you allow nose art to be painted on?
6. Hybrid of above or something else altogether?

Personally, I would have liked to see some horsehide A-2 jackets on our modern USAF flyers, if only horsehide could be obtained at a reasonable price. I understand the AF wanting uniformity in all of the modern jackets, but we all know that the differences in originals show character. Same goes for nose art, patches, etc. I guess really it boils down to cost. Even so, I'm sure there are a few USAF pilots out there who have 'private purchased' a repro from one of the top-tier manufacturers.

I'd like some of your input on all of this. You may say that the AF will never change its mind, but we can hope! Also, if the US Army ever decides to reissue the A-2 to its helicopter pilots, these are all relavant questions. After all, in many ways the Army chopper pilot is just as much a descendant of the USAAF flyer as is his USAF conterpart.

NH

Edited for spelling

 

[johnnyjohnny]

iT is what it iS

guLp, who thought i'd ever be using 'rumsfeldian' phrases to describe my take on something...or is that 'schwarzeneggerian'

anyway, i personally think what happened was not only inevitable, but spot on...

that is, current pilots wAnTed the side handwarmer pockets (most did apparently) when the spex were update in the 90s...and the throat hook may be a bit outdated, except when covering hurricanes...

personally, i like the top-entry only patch pockets and throat hook, and i like a sharper, military cut that comes down straight from under the arms, rather than a rounded 'maLL' look...1-piece backs are obviously de rigueur...

guess what i'm saying is that i love the ww2 style (certainly NoT what cooper did with it in reintroducing the 87 a-2, though avirex's original was a bit better in thicker leather and less 'tinhorn' pointy western-country music bar looking collars)

but the original a-2 was an outgrowth of earlier designs that changed with the cockpit, and the men (and now women) who inhabit it...first a big drapey leather coat with shaft (can-u-diggit) style lapels, to the a-1 (no lapels) and then the ww2 models (which were quite varied), and what we have today...

people gotta choose...you can't mandate things, and the development of the flyer jacket in itself is an adaptive process...

thaaaaaaT being said, i opt for the ww2 styles (the weber and monarch, with higher-sitting and less pointy collar points), a cleaner, tighter fit (which doesn't mean the jacket HaS to be worn tight and small, but even if a bit oversized, it doesn't have that rounded 'santa in a barrel' look, but cuts a clean line down to the hips)

people and the changing times must decide...but what is most interesting is that the more respected points of view go towards the better jackets...chapman keeping the flame alive with his recreations...some of the higher end replicators that strive for as much of the original style as possible...these are what in the end will keep the mystique alive, the legend living on...not the dual-piece-back korean-made mistake that avirex (aka cockpit usa) did back in the 90s...nor the paper thin blousey point-collared joke that the first coopers (the saddlery models seem to have a bit more integrity) exhibited

not having the bux, i have become a collector (de facto, i didn't start out to be...just couldn't stop buying) of post-war a-2s...some of them are quite clean and true to the originals...as much as i have no respect for uswings for so many reasons, customer service prime, the cut of their a-2 is superb if sized well (otherwise the collar looks bozo-ish)...those patterns are virtually the same as you'll see with the remarkably priced leathercoatsetc.com, though these are current models and do not have throat hoox, and have hidden side-entry pockets...

sporty's u.s. made a-2s, the horsehide especially (of which i am lucky enough to have one) had a great clean shape, high set (collar-stand looking) collars...alas, sporty's now has the blousey pakistanian-made a-2s...

but in the post-war period there have been a number of very respectable and true to spirit productions of the venerable a-2, and not by high-priced recreators, but $200 jackets...orchard for instance veered away from the clown-suit that cooper was putting out, and came up with a clean, sharp, true to original a-2 (don't know if they're still producing)

point being, tastes and time will tell, you can't dictate...but as in everything, educated and better tastes will always gravitate to the best...and in a-2s i think that is the ww2 spex and design, though i like to wear mine a little bigger, which still exhibits the clean military silhouette...and i have since foregone the 'Long' sizes, opting for a regular, which if worn slightly oversize, doesn't look like a floodwater jacket (sorry guys, i hate a-2s that come up to one's navel)

one opinion...certainly a lot to weigh in on

 

[Mid-fogey]

Well...

...the guys still wear them, but slowly all sorts of "unworthies" started to get them authorized. Since most of the AF has been in BDUs/ABUs or flight suits since 9/11, the real aircrews have gone to wearing the green Nomex flight jacket -- the one they really fly in. Since those are only (usually) issued to aircrews it differentiates them from the pounders who've managed to get the leather jackets.

FWIW, many of the guys get the "Turkey Mod" in which they get a side hand warmer pocket, a wedge of leather under the arm so you can move around in the thing, and an inside pen and pencil pocket.

 

[Nighthawk]

^ Thanks for the reply johnnyjohnny. I agree with a lot of what you say.

I think that this very forum here on The Fedora Lounge has helped keep some of the 'mystique' alive (well at least for me!).

I do know a few chaps in the AF and in AFROTC (none of them pilots, at least not yet!), and I am half-tempted to ask their opinion....I'm just afraid that i'll come off as kinda crazy after spouting off A-2 details that I've picked up here at TFL....

I should add that current US law requires, if at all possible, all military weapons, gear, clothing, etc. be made in the US. (When the Army decided to issue black berets for virtually all soldiers, no company in the US could make them in time so the first issue for everybody was made in China, not sure of the quality, but anyways Congress or the brass or somebody said no way and they were all re-issued).

As for nose art, I also should have added that the political correctness today would likely forbid, shall we say 'scantily clad' ladies on the backs of jackets. I remember reading that there was something of an uproar about it during WWII, but can you imagine the response today? At least in WWII the artists had a sense of sophistication.

This whole topic is somewhat related to your G-1 thread that you posted a while back as well...I too am also interested in A-2s from post-war all the way up to the present.

--Nighthawk

 

[Nighthawk]

...the guys still wear them, but slowly all sorts of "unworthies" started to get them authorized. Since most of the AF has been in BDUs/ABUs or flight suits since 9/11, the real aircrews have gone to wearing the green Nomex flight jacket -- the one they really fly in. Since those are only (usually) issued to aircrews it differentiates them from the pounders who've managed to get the leather jackets.

FWIW, many of the guys get the "Turkey Mod" in which they get a side hand warmer pocket, a wedge of leather under the arm so you can move around in the thing, and an inside pen and pencil pocket.

Kinda ironic, since during WWII generals and paratroopers procured A-2s for themselves.

Thanks for the info about the leather under the arm, didn't know that.

NH

 

[Weston]

Granted, most of my time in the USAF has been in the summer time, but WWII was WWII. If you issued a WWII era A-2 to a modern airman, he'd think it's too short, too confining and subpar compared to their nomex. The jacket is like anything else, made to modern tastes – and I certainly wouldn't want anything priced in the stratosphere, particularly since officers purchase their own uniforms (thanks Congress). You better believe I'm not spending my lieutenant's pay on a Goodwear.

The only thing that strikes me as bizarre was allowing the hand warmer pockets. You're never supposed to stick your hands in your pockets in your uniform. As a Captain said to me once "If your hands are cold, you've discovered why AAFES sells gloves!"

 

[Havana]

I was in the USAF from 1991-1993. Every issued A-2's that I got to inspect was an Avirex and they were cut to fit with throat hooks and no extra pockets. They looked sharp. I wasn't around in the late 90's or whenever the later versions came about. It just stands to reason that things are going to change. The 21st century just isn't the 1940's. I really prefer the classics but I respect the issued jackets of today for what they are. I see them as no less "legitimate" than their golden era ancestors or reproductions thereof. I can't disrespect it because disrespecting the uniform is disrespecting the service it represents. Personally, I think it's nothing short of a miracle that the A-2 was resurrected at all. Despite all the blah, blah talk of tradition, the one thing solely responsible for the Air Force wanting to bring back the A-2 was the run away success of Top Gun. Tom Cruise struting in his G1 as the ultimate 80's era "join the Navy" pitchman made it all happen. That is the true truth.

 

[Edward]

As for nose art, I also should have added that the political correctness today would likely forbid, shall we say 'scantily clad' ladies on the backs of jackets. I remember reading that there was something of an uproar about it during WWII, but can you imagine the response today? At least in WWII the artists had a sense of sophistication.

Certainly that would be a factor, with changing social mores, and there being ladies in the armed forces now in all sorts of positions where a scantily clad (or more likely in today's world, flamboyantly bare-breasted) young woman being displayed on the back of a jacket could end up being cited in a sexual harassment case (c/f the presence of pornography in the work place being so treated).

The bigger factor, though, would be the danger of handing an opposing government a trump card should USAF pilots be captured wearing the A2 with something gung-ho painted on it. I remember reading about captured US airmen in WW2 being paraded as examples of the "murderous Western barbarians" or some similar description when they were captured wearing A2s with the "Murder Inc" detailing painted on them. Especially nowadays with so much emhasis placed upon winning the "hearts and minds" of civilians somewhere like Iraq or Afghanistan, I can see how the like of that happening would be a huge setback. Without veering into political commentary, I think it's also obvious what damage it could do to the military in an already very unpopular campaign on the home front.

All in all, much as I love the artwork from the war period, I actually think it's probably a fairly sensible idea for the military to have disallowed such jacket artwork in the modern airforce.

 

[Nighthawk]

Thanks for the input everyone.

Edward, I understand what you mean about the 'gung-ho' images/messages. Some German troops made headlines the other year when they painted an Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicle.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=95843
http://www.nysun.com/foreign/german-troops-display-nazi-symbol/42881/

NH

 

[Raymundo]

Get rid of the A-2 altogether and replace it with a russet brown goatskin AN-J-3 from Gibson and Barnes. Comfort, fit, quality and style. What more could you ask for?

Ray

 

[The Wingnut]

Fireproofing!

In all honesty, it's nice to dream, but the need for a leather garment for flight crews has long passed with the advent of pressurization. The open cockpit and unpressurized flight environments that brought about intermediate jackets such as the A-2 and G-1 or AN-J-3 are long gone. Form should follow function, and service / combat aircraft and their crews follow a form of survivability...it should carry into the service garments, as well.

I like my nomex flightsuit and would like a lightweight nomex jacket with a zip-out liner to go with it. As it is, I'm only authorized the flightsuit while traveling / 'on the road', so to speak. Just last week a fellow maintainer was drenched in JP-8 when disconnecting the hoses from a KC-10 and the shutoff valve backflowed onto him. Flash fires come not from the fuels themselves, but from their vapors, and he was more in danger for a time after the backflow incident - while the fuel evaporated out of his clothing - than he was while it occurred. Something as trivial as a static discharge could have lit him up. BAD NEWS while wearing a BDU, which he was. A nomex coverall while working the line would be far superior to the mostly nylon BDUs and ABUs we're required to wear while working at our home station. The same goes for any foul weather gear, right now we're authorized a gore-tex parka and pants, also mostly low-melt synthetics.

I'm more afraid of being badly burned than I am of being shot at, or getting frostbite!

 

[Nighthawk]

I'm more afraid of being badly burned than I am of being shot at, or getting frostbite!

Interesting perspective. I read somewhere that some military units aren't allowed to wear Under Armour because it will melt onto the skin in a fire.

Below is a link to a picture of an AN-2 Colt bi-plane flying at a 2005 Red Flag over the Nellis Range! (I know, I know, a freaking bi-plane! I didn't know any Air Force still operated them!) It's a Russian plane first built in 1947. If I was the pilot I'd wear a leather jacket.

http://www.lazygranch.com/images/flags/r2005_3/colt.jpg

 

[kampkatz]

Fabulous discussion. Excellent points. Practicality aside, the original style A2is still a favorite to enough people for manufacturers to keep turning them out.