It Looks Like War: Israel - Lebanon

[The Mad Hatter]

the Hamms or Hezbollah should have known better, stupid as stupid goes.

Actually, the current situation diverts attention from Iran's nuclear arms development. It also weakens the United States' position in Iraq.

Viewed from a broader perspective, it advances their purposes.

 

[Hondo]

Actually, the current situation diverts attention from Iran's nuclear arms development. It also weakens the United States' position in Iraq.

Viewed from a broader perspective, it advances their purposes.

This is going to be interesting, Iran (they have been up to something for a while, even in Iraq) , Iraq, and that fool in North Korea, Israel may be small but she packs a mightily punch, add the U.S.A. England, South Korea, and Japan, drag in China (think Taiwan) Russia, lets get the party started

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

You forgot one religion in the mix.
.

That's what I meant with my plead to be careful with generalisations and equations, and with the image you get from comfortably easy headlines.

I think he didn't. The Jewish religion, even in its tragically erroneous (in my understanding) form of religious Zionism, simply doesn't play a r?¥le in the current government's acts. They're secular centre-to conservative politicians as in a couple other Western democracies - probably less influenced by religion than any US administration, be it Democrats or Republicans.

Only they're living a daily 9/11.

 

[PADDY]

Just reflect on some of the attitudes coming out here...

Here's some of the members' views I have just picked up on my daily 'quick' scan of this thread, and my goodness look at the goodies I have picked up in just a few minutes. After reading them, just bear in mind that people are losing lives in this, it's not a PS2 game or a game of tag in the playground, where the dead get up after the game is over:

It's a 'yawn, what's new situation?'
Gas prices will be going up, better start filling up now.
It's like a high school playground.
They only understand the sword.
Key people need to be eliminated.
It's a day care sandbox.
If we need cartoons, then just turn on the news.
The Middle East has long been overdue for a huge parking lot for some time now.


And then we call the media arrogant and patronising?

And we wonder all suprised how when we as great authoriative and democratic nations, taking the moral high ground march into other countries with different cultures (many much more ancient than ours) to help and police them, why do they resent us so much? and how can these primitive neolithic tribesmen and 'rag heads' who have never had a Big Mac manage to hold their own so well against our 21st Century modern legions?

I'm not clever enough to be the voice of reason, but, maybe when we all have a moment spare, it might be worth thinking over some of these attitudes just displayed in one thread, and see what it says about us, and the problems (when we multiply it from ground level right up to national level) it can get us into with other cultures and nations.

 

[scotrace]

It is a very grave and pressing situation with numerous, far-reaching and long-term implications. Moreso than the US effort in Iraq, this swift action may cause enormous upset and destabalization in the region directly, and in far scattered places across the globe.

It doesn't matter where the finger should be pointed; it is very disheartening to find that all the global bloodletting of the 20th century may spill into the 21st.






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[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

Paddy,


I share your sadness about the cynical remarks - a life is a life -, but sometimes I think some of these aren't actual an expression of scornfulness, but a counter-reactio to the feeling of powerlessness.

 

[LizzieMaine]

War can function as a tool of national policy only to the extent that all the participants dehumanize The Enemy -- willfully blocking out any realization that every single individual involved is someone's husband/wife/mother/father/brother/sister/son/daughter. The Middle East situation is the ultimate proof of what happens when such a policy is institutionalized over generations.

Forget about politics and oil and religion and ethnicity for a moment and try to think about it in human terms -- the enormity of the human loss on all sides -- and you can't help but be deeply ashamed of us as a species.

At least I can't.

 

[Hondo]

The enormity of the human loss on all

War can function as a tool of national policy only to the extent that all the participants dehumanize The Enemy -- willfully blocking out any realization that every single individual involved is someone's husband/wife/mother/father/brother/sister/son/daughter. The Middle East situation is the ultimate proof of what happens when such a policy is institutionalized over generations.

Forget about politics and oil and religion and ethnicity for a moment and try to think about it in human terms -- the enormity of the human loss on all sides -- and you can't help but be deeply ashamed of us as a species.

At least I can't.

I couldn't agree more with you, both sides hold blame, Soon there won’t be any one educated enough to know there difference from right and wrong, the children suffer the most, learning to hate and kill, some childhood. Really sad.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

Politico-cynical remark alert

(I'll probably refrain from other remarks from now on.)

For many, many Israelis, the value of a Jewish life is the same as the value of an Arab life.

Sadly, the same is true for many, many Arabs.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

What's worse: a war begun for religious reasons, or a war begun for financial gain?

My guess is that the religious war is worse. At least with the latter, the war ends when the money dries up (for one side or the other). With the former, the zeal never runs out.


(That said, I do not think that what's going on in Lebanon and Israel right now is motivated by religion. Nationalism, whatever that means these days, is the main factor here.)


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[Marc Chevalier]

I think [Andykev] didn't [forget to mention Judaism in the mix].

Yes. But to the minds of the Arabs and other Middle Eastern ethnicities, Judaism is most definitely in the mix. They don't shout, "Kill the Israelis"; they shout "Kill the Jews". They don't rail against an alleged "international Israeli conspiracy"; they use the words "Jewish conspiracy". Judaism is in the mix, precisely because the enemies of Israel have planted it there in the minds of many Muslims.

If we use your criteria, Shaul, then we can say that Christianity isn't in the mix, either. But by my (and Andykev's?) criteria, it is ... because the enemies of the West have painted it thus.

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[jamespowers]

Yes. But to the minds of the Arabs and other Middle Eastern ethnicities, Judaism is most definitely in the mix. They don't shout, "Kill the Israelis"; they shout "Kill the Jews". They don't rail against an alleged "international Israeli conspiracy"; they use the words "Jewish conspiracy". Judaism is in the mix, precisely because the enemies of Israel have planted it there in the minds of many Muslims..

You certainly have a point there. They have a huge group that they lump all together for running into the sea.

Regards,

J

 

[Terry Lennox]

this war has been going on since the dawn of time and will continue well into the dusk...

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Like war itself.

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[pablocham]

this war has been going on since the dawn of time and will continue well into the dusk...

This is not true unless you think 1917 is the dawn of time. Between the Old testament and the end of the Ottomans this war didn't exist. People said the same cynical and shortsighted nonsense prior to the Camp David Talks. Funny thing, Egypt and Israel haven't gone to war since.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Before 1917, Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire.

In 1516 the Ottoman Turks conquered Palestine, and the country was incorporated in the dominions of the Ottoman Empire. Local governors were appointed from Constantinople, to which annual revenues were sent. Various public works were undertaken in Palestine, such as the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1537. Though the Ottoman Empire collapsed at the end of World War I, Palestine remained under Turkish rule until World War II.

So, what's the solution? Bring back old-fashioned empires?

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[PADDY]

Sorry...seems that a 'few' of you feel that my remarks were out of order

A few people here feel that I was out of order and not even handed in asking you to stand back and think about some of the remarks being made.

Apparently for some, It was out of order for me just to ask you to think, that's all, have a think about remarks such as turning the middle east into a parking lot or eliminating people by force or seeing the middle east as a school playground or sand pit.
I wanted you to have a wee quiet think, when the armchair general's blood had cooled and tetesterone had wained about what those hot headed attitudes towards the middle east might seem like to people having to 'live' and just survive in the middle east on a day-to-day basis.

Sorry guys, maybe I just asked too much of some people today...[huh]

Looks like I got it wrong then folks and all those remarks made about the middle east that I listed were totally acceptable and even gracious and magnaminous towards those folk in the middle east.

As I'm a big enough man here to take it on the chin, I will also hold my hand upto a greater offence in my book, and that was poor judgement and lack of common sense on my part in contributing to this sensitive post.

Because one of the sacrifices I knowingly and willingly have to make in wearing this little tin Sheriff's Bartenders' Star, is to be impartial and not get so involved in such discussions. And I'm usually pretty good at standing back. I have to be able to see the wood for the trees.
And there was gung-ho old me for one rare lapse, jumping fully armed into the wood in my Tiger Stripes getting you to stop and think about the acceptability of saying things like turning the middle east into a huge parking lot! Sure, of course that's acceptible isn't it.

Guess the old guard just slipped for a few minutes in allowing myself to point a few things out that I felt needed to be highlighted and thought about and reasoned through, in your own time.

Maybe that's why we hot headed Irish have such a bad reputation for getting into bar-room brawls for being totally unreasonable.

So, sorry chaps for letting the old guard down and mislaying my Wyatt Earp star. It's back on and fully shined up.

Enjoy the discussion

 

[Terry Lennox]

This is not true unless you think 1917 is the dawn of time. Between the Old testament and the end of the Ottomans this war didn't exist. People said the same cynical and shortsighted nonsense prior to the Camp David Talks. Funny thing, Egypt and Israel haven't gone to war since.

so you're saying there's been peace there up until 1917?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

A few people here feel that I was out of order and not even handed in asking you to stand back and think about some of the remarks being made.

As one of the people quoted, i'd say you were correct to say what you said. I can be overly flippant at times. This was one of 'em.

The playground reference was about the apparent tit for tat (with the associated parties taking it in turns to kick it off again) nature of the current conflict, mini-intifada, whatever it's called these days. Not that it was a game or somehow not dangerous. There are people on all sides of this conflict who have a vested interest in maintaining it, and making it as dangerous as possible for the innocent bystanders. This serves political, military, and economic ends. This is what disgusts me. The ability of humanity to condone the killing, whatever side may be the perpetrators, because of our personal perceptions of who may be right (correct) will never cease to amaze me.

End line. I'll join Paddy and Shaul-Ike in the bar for the rest of this one.

bk

 

[pablocham]

So, what's the solution? Bring back old-fashioned empires?

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I have no idea what the solution is, but the last fifty years or so of history have shown that no war is inevitable. Moreover, most wars seem to have more to do with the internal politics of the country that starts them than with any other factor. That is just my own observation. When wars have been stopped or prevented it has usually been the result of strong political will and international pressure.

I am kind of interested in what people thing is the cause of the last sixty years of conflict in the middle east. Personally, I don't accept the "conflict of civilizations theory." I give more weight to the arbitrary partition and invention of nation states by colonial powers than to any inherent conflict between Jews and Arabs or Muslims, or between the West and the East. Any student of history knows that the Jews have since the time of the Romans had much more to fear from Europeans than from Muslims or Arabs. Other factors in this mess have been Anglo/French/U.S. realpolitik: "destabilization" as official U.S. policy in the region, and the propping up of dictators as a bulwark against Soviet expansion.

A further problem is that the "Bush Doctrine" of preemptive war essentially removed what little moral authority the U.S. might have had in preaching restraint and diplomatic solutions.