It is to weep - more uncouthness advocated

[scottyrocks]

Nice grammar!

Grammar police!!

Not nice.

 

[Lefty W.]

Nice grammar!

Thanks, but I must give credit to my Contracts law professor, Russell Weintraub, who in turn took the phrase ("up with which I will not put") from Winston Churchill.

 

[Pompidou]

He does say that socially, you might have to - such as for your boss. I rarely tuck mine in, and I'm the ultra lean, under 130 lbs type that supposedly can do so. I wear mine over a tucked in t-shirt more like a jacket than a shirt, half the time. If the t-shirt is any good, I don't even bother buttoning - let people appreciate both shirts at the same time. Seems there's been an ongoing battle over how much pants you can see vs how much shirt you can see. For a while, people were wearing their waistlines ridiculously high. I personally thought that looked terrible. It's nice to see shirts winning, at least for now.

 

[MikeBravo]

Grammar police!!

Not nice.

Actually, it was a compliment as he did use correct grammar (at least I think he did). He avoided using a preposition (in this case, the word 'with') to end a sentence.

Of course, now I am grammar police

As long as Lefty took it as a compliment

 

[Lefty W.]

As long as Lefty took it as a compliment

MB, I did recognize the compliment. You noticed my attempt to use correct grammar. Because a preposition is something you don't want to end a sentence with.

To reiterate, referring to a shirt as a "button-down" shirt merely because it has buttons on the front placket really grinds my gears.

 

[Pompidou]

MB, I did recognize the compliment. You noticed my attempt to use correct grammar. Because a preposition is something you don't want to end a sentence with.

To reiterate, referring to a shirt as a "button-down" shirt merely because it has buttons on the front placket really grinds my gears.

How specific do you get? I have lots of shirts I call "button downs". All of them button all the way down, obviously. Half of them can button at the tip of the collars and half can't. When I say button down shirt, I just mean dress shirt, as in, not one of my flannel shirts, which are also button down. It's any shirt that's not a polo/golf shirt and that people would recognize as business casual in my mind.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

All of them button all the way down, obviously.

Not so obviously. Until the '50s, Brooks Brothers oxford cloth shirts buttoned only 2/3 of the way down. The bottom third was solid fabric. (Think of a nightshirt.) You had to pull the shirt over your head to put it on.


When Brooks Brothers began to make its oxford shirts with a full button-front opening, a male member of the family --Winthrop Holly Brooks-- complained bitterly about the change. "Makes me feel like my pecker's hanging out!", he said.

 

[Lefty W.]

When I say button down shirt, I just mean dress shirt, as in, not one of my flannel shirts, which are also button down.

And that is precisely the problem, Pompidou. Calling any shirt with buttons down the front a "button-down" shirt is akin to refering to your hat as a "fedora," merely because it is made of felt.

"Button-down" refers specifically to a type of collar that buttons down onto the shirt front - hence the name. Brooks Brothers invented this style of collar in the late 1800s, to deal with the problem that polo players were having. When they were out riding their ponies, they didn't want their collars flapping about in the breeze.

I suspect that some inartful copywriter saw the term at some point and figured that it meant a shirt with buttons down the front. An obvious conclusion, perhaps, but incorrect, nonetheless. I speculate that this copywriter wrote an article or an advertisement using the term without bothering to check on the correct usage, the article/advert was published, and this now-common mistake was foisted upon popular culture.

But don't take my word for it. Contact Brooks Brothers. I would imagine they would respond that the term they coined indeed applies strictly to a type of collar.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

What would be a proper general term, then? I see I've been using the wrong term all of this time! I'm a bit embarrassed.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

What would be a proper general term, then?

That's easy. A "full front-buttoning" shirt, or a "full front-buttoned" shirt, or simply a "button(ed)-front" shirt.

 

[Pompidou]

At the end of the day, the point of communication is to get a message from point A to point B in a way both parties can understand, and if the connotation of button down has become more inclusive, you've gotta go with the flow. A word means what everyone thinks it does, no matter what the facts might say. That's how I think, anyway. I never fight the tide of language-change.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Brooks Brothers invented this style of collar in the late 1800s,...

False, Lefty. Thick flannel "camp" and "fireman" shirts with button-down collars had existed in America since the late 1800s. (You can find engravings of them in Sears Roebuck catalogs of the era.) Even so, Brooks Brothers did not take its inspiration from these shirts; it copied --not invented-- its own, much lighter weight version from those seen on polo players in England around 1896.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

Okay, thanks for the info! Much appreciated.

That's easy. A "full front-buttoning" shirt, or a "full front-buttoned" shirt, or simply a "button(ed)-front" shirt.

 

[Lefty W.]

False, Lefty. Thick flannel "camp" and "fireman" shirts with button-down collars had existed in America since the late 1800s. (You can find engravings of them in Sears Roebuck catalogs of the era.) Even so, Brooks Brothers did not take its inspiration from these shirts; it copied --not invented-- its own, much lighter weight version from those seen on polo players in England around 1896.

You are correct. I misspoke, and most humbly apologize. Brooks Brothers introduced their version of the button-down collar to America in the late 1800s.

From the Brooks Brothers dot com website:

The story of the original Polo® Button-Down dates to the late 1800s. While on a European buying trip, John E. Brooks, the grandson of our founder, observed that polo players had cleverly anchored their collars to their shirts by means of buttons, thus keeping their collars from flying into their faces during gameplay. Inspired by what he saw, he came back to Brooks and introduced the original Polo Button-Down to America that same year, thereby changing the face of menswear forever.

While the button-down may seem ubiquitous today, the magnitude of the revolution Brooks sparked when he introduced the collar cannot be understated. Prior to the Polo Button-Down, it was standard practice for men to purchase their shirts and collars separately. The much-imitated Button-Down was the beginning of the end of this practice, which is all but eliminated today except in the most formal shirtings, the full-dress shirt, which is most suitably worn with tails. Today, Brooks Brothers shirts featuring the original Polo Button-Down collar remain a staple in the wardrobe of well-dressed gentlemen who maintain an appreciation for the classic style of one of Brooks' best-loved contributions to men's dress.
​

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Thanks for the additional info, Lefty!


Most folks today don't realize that a fair number Ivy League students were wearing button-down shirts on campus as early as the 'teens. By the '20s, those Ivy League graduates were wearing them off-campus too: F. Scott Fitzgerald, Edmund Wilson, and John O'Hara are famous examples. By the '30s, button-down shirts were being made by every major shirt manufacturer.

 

[Lefty W.]

At the end of the day, the point of communication is to get a message from point A to point B in a way both parties can understand, and if the connotation of button down has become more inclusive, you've gotta go with the flow. A word means what everyone thinks it does, no matter what the facts might say. That's how I think, anyway. I never fight the tide of language-change.

I understand the sentiment, Pompidou, and I'm certainly not one to maintain the Queen's English at all costs. For some reason, though, the whole button-down thing is fingernails-on-a-chalkboard to me.

So, let me ask you this - are you o.k. with folks referring to your pork-pie as a "cowboy hat"?

Nice work of Art, by the way.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Hmmm..I've always called a button down collar shirt a button down (shirt) since a little lad in the early fifties. Button down...snap(tab)..spread,etc always designated the collar for me. Pullover..reg shirt..3/4 button shirt told the rest of the story for me. Button 'down' specified the collar. I guess I can see where someone could think a button down shirt meant it 'buttoned' all the way down..but never heard it used that way.
HD

 

[Pompidou]

I understand the sentiment, Pompidou, and I'm certainly not one to maintain the Queen's English at all costs. For some reason, though, the whole button-down thing is fingernails-on-a-chalkboard to me.

So, let me ask you this - are you o.k. with folks referring to your pork-pie as a "cowboy hat"?

Nice work of Art, by the way.

Thanks for the compliment. In regards to the cowboy hat question, I don't mind. If I were allowed to post the words I've answered to, what people call my hat would be insignificant. I took the "whatever..." sentiment of gen-x to a new level.

 

[Cobden]

What would be a proper general term, then? I see I've been using the wrong term all of this time! I'm a bit embarrassed.

I think that it's often forgotten that, especially with regards clothing, the word in one part of the world will be different to another; not just between countries, but between regions. Whilst I'm not entirely certain of the differences in sartorial ideolect between wisconsin and Texas, it's strikes me as plausible that one part of the US a "button down shirt" is what I'd term a coat fronted shirt, whereas elsewhere it might refer to what I'd call a button collar shirt.

And yes, I appreciate that I've used words to describe the items that so far have not, yet, been used. I plead Britishness.

 

[MikeBravo]

When I've heard the word "shirt" I have pictured a shirt with buttons down the front to close it. Otherwise it's a t-shirt i.e. one without buttons. When I've heard "button-down" shirt I have thought of a collar with buttons holding the collar down

When all else fails, I refer to the good old Oxford Dictionary:

"Noun: a garment for the upper body made of cotton or a similar fabric, with a collar and sleeves, and with buttons down the front"

My friends and allies across the Pacific may prefer Websters:

"Noun: a garment for the upper part of the body: as a cloth garment usually having a collar, sleeves, a front opening, and a tail long enough to be tucked inside trousers or a skirt"

No mention of buttons here, however it does mention a front opening, so I suppose the buttons are implied