Is this true?

[deenis]

A vendor on Ebay wrote this to me when I asked if his hat was 100% beaver fur:

"To my knowledge, there's no hat 100% Beaver, all hats are a fur blend. "X's" on a hat notes the percentage of Beaver in the hat. This hat says 100% genuine fur (it may have been made before the X rating system), and means other than the Beaver, there's no other fibers except fur of some kind. Most often, rabbit (known as Coney fur), mink, ermine, etc. was used in addition to the Beaver fur. The reason these furs are so expensive is that it's not what you see when you look at the animal or the pelt, it's the first or second undercoat which is hard to separate and much more expensive. Hence, the blends are more economical and easy to work with in the felting process. Because this hat is by Beaver Hat Co., you can be sure the percentage of Beaver is very high."

So from what the vendor is saying, if a hat has 5 x's on it, it means that the hat is 50% beaver fur. I thought that it was just a way for a hat producer to identify the general quality of the hat and not necessarily a reflection of only the felt.

 

[fluteplayer07]

There's been so much talk about X's and what they mean and what they don't... It's sort of blended together for me, and I really don't listen to it. And nowadays, there's companies claiming they have a 200X straw hat or some nonsense like that. From what I can tell, as far as older hats go, the more X's, the better quality, without any direct correlation to fur content. But don't quote me... As I said, I'm completely on the subject.

 

[jlee562]

As far as I've read here, the X rating system is completely arbitrary and varies from company to company.

But it's verifiably false to say that there are no 100% beaver hats.

 

[tonyb]

The seller may indeed be telling you the truth as best he or she knows it, but he or she doesn't know it.

The X system means next to nothing. At one time, each X may have actually stood for 10 percent beaver fur in a blend, and maybe it didn't. But different manufacturers assigned different meanings to the X, and even different meanings within their individual product offerings. These days, it means whatever the particular hat maker decides it means. The X system is still fairly common in the Western hat world, and I'd imagine many Western hat makers attach this or that number of X's to their hats because their customers expect them to, even though those hat makers know it is all a bunch of hooey.

 

[tonyb]

A vendor on Ebay wrote this to me when I asked if his hat was 100% beaver fur:

" ... Because this hat is by Beaver Hat Co., you can be sure the percentage of Beaver is very high."

And this assertion is dubious at best.

 

[rlk]

And this assertion is dubious at best.

From Beaver Brands Hats Site:
What do the X's mean?

Beaver Brand Hats has taken the stance of not using X rating to excess. Since there is not an industry standard for quality ratings, each hat company can rate there products as they see fit. This is why you will find 100X, 1000X or more from other hat manufacturers. At one point in time, X's were related to the 100% of beaver fur used in the hat body. But the underlying question is how can anything have more than 100% of anything in its makeup? Our hats start with a preparatory blend of fur. As we increase our X rating, we use higher quality blends and trim in addition to extended finishes techniques to obtain the different quality touch and feel.

Western and Outback X's

Currently, Beaver Brand Hats offers 100% fur felt starting at our 5X Outback and continues through our 20X Western hats; and all are a smooth finish.

Dress Finishes
Beaver Brand Hats offers no less than eight (8) finishes, with seven (7) of them made of 100% fur felt, in our Dress Hat category.

Peluche: Worked by hand, our Peluche finish is our longest nap finish we offer. The nap is left long and left uncombed.

Grand Beaver: Our Grand Beaver finish begins with the nap left long and combed horizontally in a counter-clock direction.

Velour: Our Velour finish is probably the most enhancing appeal to the sense of touch because of the deep lustrous nap, similar to fine velvet.

Suede: When finished, the hat has the look and feel of suede or short velour; it is shorter than our Velour finish but longer than our Smooth finishes.

Silk: Our Silk finish is worked extensively by hand in such a way to give a high luster in a swirling rotation.

Heritage: Our "top self" smooth finish sanded to an exquisite finish.

Legacy: Our mid-level smooth finish sanded to be considered the industry standard.

Classic: As its name indicates, this fur blend and smooth finish has survived the test of time.

Basic: Our opening price point in wool.

 

[tonyb]

Good of Beaver Brand to acknowledge the arbitrariness of the X system.

It wasn't Beaver Brand making the claim of a "very high" percentage of beaver fur in a particular hat; it was the eBay seller deenis cited in this thread's initial post. It appears that Beaver Brand itself makes no such assertion. Indeed, I see nowhere in the source rlk cited any mention of their hats having any actual beaver fur content at all. Further evidence that the eBay seller is engaging in wishful thinking, if not outright deception. There's no reason for me not to give him or her the benefit of the doubt, so I'm inclined to chalk it up to a lack of knowledge.

It's telling, I think, that Beaver Brand apparently limits their use of the X system to their "Outback" and Western hats. That supports the observation that the X thing is still widely practiced in that part of the hat industry, and largely abandoned on the "city" hat side.

 

[deenis]

So what about the fine hat makers such as Optimo, Art Fawcett, Gus Miller, Borsalino, etc? When they sell a beaver fur hat, don't they sell 100% beaver?
I recently asked Gus Miller to make me a hat and told him I wanted 100% beaver. He said he could only get the blank in 3 different colors. The custom made hats can be made in 100%, right?

 

[barrowjh]

100% Beaver

Art Fawcett, Greg Fiske and I discussed this very issue briefly at the recent FL gathering in Winchester. 100% Beaver is real.

During my first tour of the Winchester facility 3 years ago, I misunderstood a discussion about 'all the same' fur, in which they informed me that 'all the same' (meaning all same grade of loose fur) does not felt well, and I thought they were explaining that you cannot felt 100% anything. that was incorrect. That does not mean that you have to mix another type of fur with beaver to help it 'felt', this was accomplished in the past by mixing some different grades of beaver. That high degree of speciation is prohibitively expensive in the modern world. In the past, the bales of beaver fur might have been segregated into several different grades of quality; but now the fur is not so carefully differentiated, and the beaver fur will felt reasonably well without need for any blending.

btw - a 50 kilogram bale of beaver fur cost $20,000. That's in the $182 per pound range - and THE factor in the sharp increase in the price of a beaver fur hat vs just 'fur' felt.

Beaver Brand's 5X is their 1st step above wool, or the low-grade rabbit fur. Their Heritage series is a higher quality blend (and a finely sanded finish), but still no beaver. It equates to 8X (I was told). There is some beaver in their 20X, and I have a fedora from them that is 100% beaver, but this is stated with '100% Beaver' on the sweatband.

Edited to correct my math - $20,000 for 50 keys is $400 per kilo, in the neighborhood of $182 lb. I previously stated $400 lb.

 

[fluteplayer07]

Art only deals with 100% beaver felts. I think Optimo has some mix of beaver and something else, but I don't know for sure. Borsalino usually uses Belgian Rabbit fur, and I don't know about Gus Miller. Adventurebilt has 100%, as does John Penman, as options. So does Major Moore. So yes, 100% Beaver is available.

 

[Justdog]

Beaver Brand

So from what the vendor is saying, if a hat has 5 x's on it, it means that the hat is 50% beaver fur. I thought that it was just a way for a hat producer to identify the general quality of the hat and not necessarily a reflection of only the felt.

Can pretty much assure you that if it was a modern Beaver brand that 5 x means 5 percent. I bought one last year and had the information relayed to me directly from the company. A 100 percent beaver felt hat is 100 percent beaver felt. X,s can range up to 100 little x.s in an el presidente for example. Yes this is discussed extensively on the lounge as it is a very important aspect of collecting and custom mades. The best value for dollar I have seen is Art Fawcett custom hats. For a beaver felt it is a tremendous value. My 6x Beaver brand was 6 percent beaver and the rest rabbit. A western would cost a lot of money entierly in beaver felt. Vintage Stetsons are what they say when it comes to x's 7x and 100 are beaver felt, 3x is 30 percent although the vintage felt is so soft and well made it may as well be 100 percent.

 

[Falcon Park]

I can also personally attest that 100% beaver from Winchester is exactly that, and man, is it sweet! I absolutely love working with it; the felt is like butter in your hands. Winchester's blends are strictly in western felt, and they offer a few different grades-- all excellent, as well.

Cheers!

FP

 

[Not-Bogart13]

The seller is trying to be honest, even if he is not well informed. Since Beaver Brand makes many different blends, it's hard to say what he really has.

100% Beaver is expensive, and you can get it from the better custom hatters. Beaver Brand might even carry one, though I don't recall. In any event, almost all factory made and non-custom hats today are NOT 100% Beaver fur.

 

[barrowjh]

Agree

Agree with Not-Bogart13, not many 100% beaver hats for sale. Borsalino and Stetson each have one, but it is not common - only the larger stores or an internet store have them, and you have to search them out. Beaver Brand also has a 100% beaver, and thefedorastore carries it (customizable), but I doubt that they sell very many of them. Normal retail is $450 and up. Art Fawcett will build you a nicer hat than any of the factory made, and sell it to you at a better price as well.

So, typical ebay seller might not be aware that there are some 100% beaver hats out there, you just don't bump into them every day, whether in vintage or new hats, not many buyers demand that level of quality.

 

[jporgeck]

I was informed by Art Fawcett that the hat he is making me is 100% beaver and I doubt that anyone here would refute his assertion. Like others have mentioned here...custom hatters are more likely to provide 100% beaver vice what you may get from a standard hat store. Similarly you pay more.

 

[navarre]

I also attest to the Winchester %100! Very happy to work with it. And as for colors they offer 10-12 in both dress and western wieghts.

 

[daizawaguy]

:eusa_clap

I was informed by Art Fawcett that the hat he is making me is 100% beaver and I doubt that anyone here would refute his assertion.

:eusa_clap