Is this normal for G & B's m-422a's?

[Tsongkhapa]

Hi all,

I've been a long time lurker on the Fedora Lounge, and just now got around to formally joining. I'm thrilled to finally be a part of the action!

I didn't want my first post to be something on the negative side, but I just had a strange experience with G & B. I don't know if this is normal and would like to get some advice or feedback from other's experiences.

Here's the story: Although I'm primarily an A-2 fan, with a couple of Aeros '38's and currently in the queue for GW, I decided to do some research on what would be a good, mid-range m-422a flight jacket. Didn't want to lay down a lot of money on one, since I'm rather new to that style and don't know how I'll like it, but didn't want the cheapest thing out there either. So, after much due diligence and after looking at various pics posted this sight and elsewhere, I decided that G & B would be a good quality bet for a mid-range m-422a without breaking the bank. So I ordered a jacket from them a few weeks ago. Customer service was an A+. So far, so good, I thought.

Well, when I received the jacket yesterday, opened the box and took out the jacket for my first look, I was in a state of shell shock. The knits on the rib racked waistband were practically see-through. Literally thin as onion skin paper. I tried the jacket on, and just couldn't believe what I was seeing in the mirror. The thing looked so incredibly cheap. I was prepared for the fact that G & B's jackets, even on the antique collection, can run a little big, but I sure was not prepared for it looking so cheap. I felt "bummed" after just spending $650 on the thing.

I was so annoyed that I promptly packet it back up and ran to the nearest UPS office to return it. At any rate, I'm going to try to attach some pics of the paper thin rib racked waistband. I'm curious, is this normal for G & B to use such cheap looking knits and faux mouton? Also, the jacket felt so thin and light, I was really surprised. Maybe I've been spoiled by heavy chrome HH Aero jackets. I know it isn't a $1000 or upward jacket (the G & B, that is), but still?

Feedback with anyone who has experience with G & B's m-442a's or G-1s would be most appreciated.

Many thanks!

 

[Tsongkhapa]

Here are a few photos of the paper thin knits. I'm new at this, so I hope this attachment works:
/Users/nancylfraley/Downloads/photo-11.JPG

 

[Sloan1874]

You'll need to give that a second go, Tsong. Interested to see what you mean, though.

 

[Blackadder]

The knit waistband on M422a is thin (not just the G&B) because it is single ply two way weave as opposed to A-2's 2-ply double weave. I guess that makes the M422a knit at most half as thick as the A-2 not to mention the fact that the two way weave pattern in which the lower part is even thinner than the upper part.
Detailed photos including the waistband of an original M422a can be found below.
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?66548-Gordon-and-Ferguson-M422a

 

[Fanch]

If you look at G&B's website, the M-422-A has a reddish brown mouton (lamb’s wool) collar, and the knit cuffs are standard rib knit, and the waistband is a single layer of rib-rack. When I visited the G&B factory less than a year ago, I was most impressed with G&B's "historic" A-2 jackets, and my final one is a 40T (long) Type A-2 Mark 43 that is extremely nice, and one you might consider instead. The knits are wool and substantial. I decided against the Mark 31 and Mark 41 models as I don't care for the collar stand. Hope this helps.

 

[Fanch]

The knit waistband on M422a is thin (not just the G&B) because it is single ply two way weave as opposed to A-2's 2-ply double weave. I guess that makes the M422a knit at most half as thick as the A-2 not to mention the fact that the two way weave pattern in which the lower part is even thinner than the upper part.

Better said than my earlier comment but very true.

 

[Tsongkhapa]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm still trying to attach the photos I took of it. Hopefully I can get that figured out and get them posted here shortly.

Even though I was aware the the single ply weave on the M422a would be thinner than on the A-2's double ply, I was shocked at how "paper thin" it was. I could literally see the grains of the skin on my own hand when looking through the knits, or even the details of the rug on my floor.

 

[Tsongkhapa]

I'll see if this photo attachment works:

/Users/nancylfraley/Pictures/iPhoto Library.photolibrary/Previews/2014/10/08/20141008-144411/N3+rwV0PSqOiBAYMbeNWFA/photo-11.jpg

 

[Fanch]

Do you have a Photobucket account? If so, you can click on the IMG and copy/paste in this and should work.

 

[Tsongkhapa]

Well dang, can't seem to get that photo attachment on properly.

At any rate, Fanch, the M-422a that I received yesterday did not have a real mouton collar. From your above post, I assume that G & B usually uses the real lamb's wool, instead of a faux collar? If so, for whatever reason, mine looked quite synthetic. The whole jacket just didn't look like what I've seen on the G&B website. That one looks so nice!

 

[thor]

I bought replacement knit cuffs and waistband from G&B for an old G-1 I was restoring. I found the knits to be very loosely knitted (ie not a super tight weave) and it made them feel rather flimsy and thinnish. I specifically asked G&B for their M-422a knits and what they sent me was a bit disappointing. Just my 2 cents, Gents.

 

[Tsongkhapa]

I hear you on that, Thor. I felt very disappointed.

I'm attaching a photo bucket link. Hopefully this will work in regards to the photos of the paper thin knits.

http://s1289.photobucket.com/upload

 

[Deacon211]

Still doesn't work I'm afraid.

I had a 422 made many years ago by G+B. I was also so shocked by the lace like weave, that I returned it and asked them to substitute the G-1's double ply. Having said that, my ELC also has fairly thin knits, though they are more tightly knitted than the G+B. On the third hand, the knits on the restored M-422 that my wife bought me supposedly came from G+B, but were put on by Aero. They are extremely thick and tight wherever they came from.

So, I don't know what is historic, but it is possible to have rib-rack and not see through it. The comment about the poor quality surprises me though. Whatever I didn't like about G+B, they always made a well sewn jacket. I did notice on the one I returned last year that the goatskin was thinner than the old 422A they made in the 90s.

Issue, G+B G-1 (2013), G+B M-422A (1997)



A not very good shot of the restored M-422A with some heavy knits...

 

[Fanch]

Pics still don't show up. If you click on the IMG icon to the right of your Photobucket picture, it should copy and paste properly. I personally don't care for the thin single layer knits that you and Thor reference. I'll bet the mouton collar is lamb's wool and not synthetic, although you would need to ask G&B to carefully examine your jacket on its return to be certain. Consider the Mark 43 A-2 and would be willing to bet you won't be disappointed, keeping in mind their historic A-2's are not big but just labeled that way. As a point of reference, I wear a 44 long sports coat, 42 long Aero maxwell, 44 long Aero Bronco A-2, but 40 Tall (long) G&B model 43 A-2. In reality a 46 long Aero Bronco A-2 would probably fit similar to a 40 Tall (long) G&B model 43 A-2.

 

[thor]

The WWII contract AN-6552 jackets made by Bogen & Tenenbaum had 2-ply waistbands like those found on A-2 jackets. Even though the single-ply rib-rack waistband was standard on WWII M-422a jackets, the 2-ply knit waistbands are certainly more robust. If you purchase a new WWII-spec jacket made with thick goatskin and thin single-ply waistband, it is not an ideal combination (even if it is "authentic").

 

[Big J]

For what it's worth, my LW G-1 has a thin and flimsy knit around the waist. I'm just guessing this is the way they were. My Aero M422a has slightly more substantial knits, but nothing like an A-2.
It's the single ply knit. I think it's just they way they were.

 

[nick123]

If you can upload a fit pic or two that would be most appreciated! Some of us are trying to confirm if they changed the patterns on their jackets.

 

[Tsongkhapa]

Thanks for the great feedback, Fellas. I'll continue to plug away at getting those photos posted on the forum when I have a little more time.

Deacon, the photos I had seen previously of your G&B M-422a from 1997 was what made me want one in the first place! That's truly a great jacket.

The follow up to the story is that after I returned the G&B, I found a 1964 Star Sportswear G-1 (7823C, I believe?) in size 38, which I promptly bought off of Ebay. Its due to arrive either today or tomorrow. At any rate, from the pics that were posted on the vendor's site, it looks to be in really great shape for a 50 year old! Although it does have a slight tear to one of the pockets, the knits seem to be holding up well, and the color of the mouton is incredible.

Again, assuming I can figure out the photo attachment feature, I'll post some pics of the G-1 when it arrives. This one looks like its gonna be a real beauty!

 

[Deacon211]

Great! It looks like you have solved your dilemma with some true vintage.

I really need to pay attention the next time I'm at a militaria show to the knits on those old jackets. I rarely see any knits on the modern repros (from my limited experience) that look what I would call robust. Like I said, the original knits on the G+B that I ordered in the 90s were so loosely knitted that I thought one good snag would unravel the whole thing like a cartoon sweater!

But maybe that's just the way they were. They seem to hold up just fine, so perhaps they are stronger than they look.

I'll take some close ups of my ELC and the W+G later for comparison.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Deacon211]

Hey, just for those who come looking, I've been meaning to post some pictures of the US Wings lady's A-2 that I purchased for my wife last year.

It was on their build up to Christmas sale and it was $199. I got it for the wife because she had always indicated that she was sort of "meh" towards flight jackets and I didn't want to get her an Eastman or something if it was going to sit in the closet.

When it arrived, I was surprised at how nice the jacket was. It seems well built and, if the materials aren't top notch, they certainly compare favorably to the likes of the Cockpit. The goat is supple, nicely grained, and has broken in very well.

The reason I'm posting it here is it makes me wonder if their G-1, of which there are several grades over at USW, might not be a reasonable choice for someone else looking for a good G-1 beater. It would probably be synthetic in the collar and cuffs, but still a reasonably nice jacket.

Anyway, for consideration. The pics aren't my finest.