Is it too early for a White Dinner Jacket?

[Tomasso]

black patent leather shoes must be worn or very well shined oxfords for those who cannot afford patent leather shoes.

Funny, I've always chosen highly shined calf over patent and it has nothing to do with finances. And all the cordwainers from Lobb on down will give you the choice of the two.


Calf can be made to shine..........

 

[AntonAAK]

But...but....what would be so wrong about wearing these specs with grey flannel in winter?

By dhermann1's logic (which I tend to agree with), nothing whatsoever as they do not have a white portion and are therefore not equivalent to white shoes. They would be equivalent to tan suede shoes and could be worn with whatever, and in whatever season, tan suede would be appropriate.

 

[Edward]

White SB (Single breasted) Tuxedo (not DB - or you'll be thrown out of the mess, you blaggard) with cumberbund is fine. Dark maroon (think British Airborne maroon) is fine, and with a matching Fez looks very fetching (out in the tropical reaches of the Empire).
#
Govt. Health Warning..!! DO NOT match a coloured bow tie with the cumberbund - or you'll look like a cheap-rate electronic keyboard player at the Cabaret dance of an Irish wedding in Dungannon (I know..!! I was there!!).

A carnation or small rose bud (deep red) always looks great against the off white of the Dinner Jacket.

Footwear = 'black' patent leather, or well Kiwi'd and bulled Oxfords'.

Otherwise, ' George' won't let you into my Club - okay?

I hear you on cheap wedding bands. Get black tie 'wrong', and one also runs the risk of being mistaken for the staff.

Hmmm? Sir I quote from the Chap magazine 'one must take liberties with tradition in the name of cutting a dash......' (Winter Warmers edition p.36).

There is that, however I believe even dear Gustav's organ would not suggest something so crass as a coloured bow tie, or vastly inappropriate shoes.

But...but....what would be so wrong about wearing these specs with grey flannel in winter?

Nothing whatever. Not ideal in the wet, due to the suede, of course.

And on a certain Boardwalk you might see......

.....worn with a camelhair overcoat.......

Yes, those too, just fine in the Wnter months.

Also not meaning to go off topic, but I have to disagree. I think spectators can be worn with a lounge suit of any colour (even more conservative dark colours) in summer. They are only inappropriate for semi-formal or formal dress (black lounge/black tie or morning dress/white tie) where black patent leather shoes must be worn or very well shined oxfords for those who cannot afford patent leather shoes.

Agreed.

Funny, I've always chosen highly shined calf over patent and it has nothing to do with finances. And all the cordwainers from Lobb on down will give you the choice of the two.


Calf can be made to shine..........

I used to prefer a high shine over patent myself, until I fell in with a bargain price on a beautiful pair of Grensons. Cheaper patent can look somehow 'cheap', to my eye (YMMV, of course), but a good pair look grand. The only real difference, though, between those and regular black leather shined to an appropriate degree is that the former are much less work!

By dhermann1's logic (which I tend to agree with), nothing whatsoever as they do not have a white portion and are therefore not equivalent to white shoes. They would be equivalent to tan suede shoes and could be worn with whatever, and in whatever season, tan suede would be appropriate.

I have a pair of Charles Tyrwitt Co-respondents that I bought specifically for Winter wear. They have burgundy toe and heel with a black vamp.

 

[Edward]

So the DB white DJ is de trop??? Even with shawl collar?

I believe you may have misunderstood; it seems to me that what Paddy was saying was inappropriate is the wearing of a cummerbund with a jacket that is DB, not that a white db jacket itself is inappropriate. In this he is entirely correct: the whole point of a Cummerbund is that the waist band of evening dress trousers should never be seen - the cummerbund prevents that when one is not wearing a waistcoat. (Waistcoats are typically thought of as inappropriate with white dj, bearing in mind that the whole point is something lighter to wear in the heat.) With a db dj jacket of any colour or lapel cut, the waistband will not be on view (one assume you would not be so gauche as the wear such a dj flapping open), therefore the cummerbund is unnecessary.

 

[dhermann1]

Also not meaning to go off topic, but I have to disagree. I think spectators can be worn with a lounge suit of any colour (even more conservative dark colours) in summer. They are only inappropriate for semi-formal or formal dress (black lounge/black tie or morning dress/white tie) where black patent leather shoes must be worn or very well shined oxfords for those who cannot afford patent leather shoes.

Yes, I would totally agree.
Edward: I wondered about that. Of course, no cummerbund with double breatsed DJ (as I used to do ALL the time when MC-ing dances for the NY Swing Dance Society in the early 90's. )

 

[Tenorclef]

Yes, I would totally agree.
Edward: I wondered about that. Of course, no cummerbund with double breatsed DJ (as I used to do ALL the time when MC-ing dances for the NY Swing Dance Society in the early 90's. )

Ah another Big Band leader I think this must be the trend for band leaders to wear white tuxedo jackets whilst the rest of the musicians wear standard black tuxedos.

 

[avedwards]

Funny, I've always chosen highly shined calf over patent and it has nothing to do with finances. And all the cordwainers from Lobb on down will give you the choice of the two.


Calf can be made to shine..........

That would be a perfectly appropriate option too IMO.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Late comer to this thread. Please excuse the abundance of quoted posts (the thread has me inspired to say a lot).

Pegged pants is a VERY late 50's, early '60's, "Mad Men" look.

Yes! Reminds me of the look of Dick York in "BEWITCHED" Elizabeth Montgomery. Ahhh, my first love!

Actually "Pegged" pants legs go back much further than that. The pants on the zoot suits of the late 30's/early 40's were considered pegged at the ankle and were the fore bearers of "drape" pants (AKA pegged slacks/pants, "peggers" etc.). Check out the lyric from a mid 50's song coauthored by Eddie Cochran (first recorded in 1956):

"When I looked inside this window, hangin' off of the racks
Down there near the bottom was a great pair of pink peg slacks"

I reserve my two-tones for informal wear.

Well, not to sidetrack this thread, but one of the innumerable things I have learned from the Lounge is that Spectators, or Co-respondants, as they're called in Britain, are sartotially equivalent to white shoes, and should only be worn with suits that you'd wear white shoes with, such as white bucks. So that would mean light linen or seersucker, for example. Startled the heck out of me when I first read it, but now it makes perfect sense to me.

Also not meaning to go off topic, but I have to disagree. I think spectators can be worn with a lounge suit of any colour (even more conservative dark colours) in summer. They are only inappropriate for semi-formal or formal dress (black lounge/black tie or morning dress/white tie) where black patent leather shoes must be worn or very well shined oxfords for those who cannot afford patent leather shoes.

Kudos, Freud and dhermann1 for pointing this out. One of my biggest pet peeves about the "vintage scene" is the incorrect wearing of two-toned shoes in general and spectators in specific. Rule regarding spectators, as imparted to me by my grandfather, (born 1909, trained as a tailor, son of a haberdasher, worked his way though college and med school by working at a bespoke tailoring firm):

1) only appropriate during summer, in the tropics, or where a sportscoat/trousers combo is acceptable.

2) Only matched with appropriate suit corresponding to the darker color if you must, but preferable to wear only with what all-white shoes could otherwise be matched with.

3) Under no circumstances okay at dinner time, the evening, or in the night time (the only exception being if your golf game went late and you're grabbing a quick supper at the clubhouse lol). To do so make you look like a "cheap pimp" (Gramp's exact words lol).

Funny, I've always chosen highly shined calf over patent and it has nothing to do with finances. And all the cordwainers from Lobb on down will give you the choice of the two.

Calf can be made to shine..........

Me too. For some reason I cannot stand patent leather. To me patent leather shoes look cheap and tacky, even when they're not. When I wear semi-formal, a dinner suit, or dinner jacket I just put a high shine on a pair of simple cap toes.

 

[JimWagner]

Me too. For some reason I cannot stand patent leather. To me patent leather shoes look cheap and tacky, even when they're not.

I wear them because it's the thing to do, but I also agree with you. They look like cheap plastic, they get out of shape quickly and look wrinkled, and you can't really repair scruffs and scrapes.

They also look like what my kid sisters wore on Easter in the 50's when they were little.

I've always speculated that they came on the market aimed at society wannabes who actually didn't have a manservant to shine their shoes for them and didn't want to spend the time to put a high (spit) shine on their shoes.

 

[David Conwill]

I've always speculated that they came on the market aimed at society wannabes who actually didn't have a manservant to shine their shoes for them and didn't want to spend the time to put a high (spit) shine on their shoes.

Sounds like I need a pair.

-Dave

 

[Lokar]

Something I remember being mentioned a while ago on the forum (by Edward, I seem to think, but I might be wrong), is that the original patent leather (Victorian) was a different beast to the modern patent leather - produced in a different way. They wore patent leather a lot more (it was acceptable to wear it in the day), so maybe it didn't look as "cheap" originally.

(A wiki shows that the original patent leather got the shine from a linseed(flax seed)-oil lacquer coating, while modern patent leather is a plastic coating.)

 

[Tomasso]

Traditional patent is still used today by the top cordwainers and is currently experiencing a resurgence in high end designer shoes, especially womans. Much more subtle and elegant compared to the plastic stuff.

 

[dustyjohnson10]

why don't you wear a black tie, it will really look good. you are'nt looking good enough in this style. try it to believe it.

 

[Edward]

Ah another Big Band leader I think this must be the trend for band leaders to wear white tuxedo jackets whilst the rest of the musicians wear standard black tuxedos.

Now you mention it, I think I've seen a fair few photos of Glenn Miller sporting that look. It makes sense for musicians to wear them, whatever the weather, at black tie events - nothing to do with practicality; simply makes them stand out. Stage costume has always been known to deviate from the normal "rules" in the name of making an impact. Look at Fred Astaire's white spats worn with white tie, or Michael Jackson's tailored stage trousers being cut too short for him, and worn with white socks: neither was "correct", but both were devices to draw attention to the dancer's feet, and thus show off his "moves" (as I believe the young people say nowadays). Some Loungers may also have seen the film Hail, Hail Rock'n'Roll, which documented the build up to and event of Chuck Berry's sixtieth birthday concert. His band for the show, led by none less than Keith Richards, were dressed in matching black tie, with pale blue, sb shawl lapel jackets. IMHO, I'd look ridiculous if I showed up to an event in that as a punter, but as a band they looked fantastic - very 50s, which was, of course, the idea.

1) only appropriate during summer, in the tropics, or where a sportscoat/trousers combo is acceptable.

2) Only matched with appropriate suit corresponding to the darker color if you must, but preferable to wear only with what all-white shoes could otherwise be matched with.

3) Under no circumstances okay at dinner time, the evening, or in the night time (the only exception being if your golf game went late and you're grabbing a quick supper at the clubhouse lol). To do so make you look like a "cheap pimp" (Gramp's exact words lol).

Heh. Interesting set of rules.... sounds lie I bend those rather a lot, but then isn't that wholly appropriate for a show that had a rather rakish image to begin with? I mean, they aren't known as "co-respondents" over here for nothing.... I wholeheartedly agree, though, that they are often overworn on the vintage scene, which can reduce them to the level of hats worn indoors at dances, clip on braces and stick on moustahces..... there is a fine line between "correct" and costume, sometimes.

I've always speculated that they came on the market aimed at society wannabes who actually didn't have a manservant to shine their shoes for them and didn't want to spend the time to put a high (spit) shine on their shoes.

Absolutely, I'm sure you're spot on on this. I know I love the convenience of putting them on without having to kill myself to get that high a shine on "ordinary" leather! I do think, though, you get that for which you pay: I've noticed a huge difference between a pair of cheapoes and a quality pair of patents, even if they are both plastic sheen.

Sounds like I need a pair.

-Dave

lol

Something I remember being mentioned a while ago on the forum (by Edward, I seem to think, but I might be wrong), is that the original patent leather (Victorian) was a different beast to the modern patent leather - produced in a different way. They wore patent leather a lot more (it was acceptable to wear it in the day), so maybe it didn't look as "cheap" originally.

(A wiki shows that the original patent leather got the shine from a linseed(flax seed)-oil lacquer coating, while modern patent leather is a plastic coating.)

If memory serves, I was involved in that thread, but it was young Charles Tsua (Charlie Huang) that provided the expertise. Never misses a detail, our Charles. Good man.

 

[rachelolive92]

very nice it is.

 

[adouglasmhor]

I had never realized “black tie” was so rigid a term.

I’m going to throw a party and specify “soup and fish” on the invitations.

-Dave

It's not, but some people panic and become rigid with fright.
I have never had any problems with black tie or Scottish black tie equivalent ever.