Is British style not what it was (or maybe never was in the 1st place)?

[BruSwain]

No wish to start any wars of words here and will begin by stating I'm a lifelong Anglophile with paternal ancestry from the U.K. Emigrants with my surname were in New England in the 17th Century. They didn't come over on the Mayflower but were close behind.

It has been my endeavor since I was old enough to wear dress clothes that were I to walk on a London street I wouldn't be mistaken for the Yankee I am (until I open my mouth, anyway). Derby hats, detachable collars, etc., etc., are my thing and have been for decades.

Wherever we Loungeniks may be I'm sure most of us have an impression of quintessential British style—Savile Row and all that, bespoke down to and including the knickers.

I see a lot of "Brit TV" either on PBS or via Netflix, whether it's costume dramas, modern cop shows, even cooking shows. Our C-SPAN cable channels offer Prime Minister's Question Time, coverage of U.K. elections, committee hearings from the Lords or House. And being a clothes-horse I pay particular attention to how the men are dressed.

I'm sorry to say I don't see many fellas dressed to the nines other than giving a shout-out to HRH who's generally pretty spiffy. Perhaps the politicians aren't typical and I shouldn't judge by them but I assume they represent a cross-section of British society. Or perhaps they're too steeped in serious purpose (as Bertie Wooster might put it) to give a damn about how they dress. Mercifully, it appears a current "fashion" here for wearing an open collar shirt with a suit hasn't (yet) crossed the pond (or maybe I just haven't seen it). The ridiculousness of that trend astounds me. I'd almost rather see tee-shirts and jeans than pinstripes and an open collar.

Some years ago there was an MP whose style I'd consider a fine example. I've forgotten his name other than to say he was a doctor (whether medical or professorial I don't know). He wore fine suits, shirts with detachable cutaway collar, and on down to the bar end of a pocket watch chain in the buttonhole of his lapel. And of course there was a pocket hankie. If I can put it this way, he reeked British gentleman.

I'm afraid I have to say I'm disappointed with British men. Please don't feel too badly about that since I'm WAY, WAY more disappointed with my own countrymen.

On the plus side must add that I recently saw some footage of a contemporary shooting party in the U. K. and most of the men were wearing ties! Egad, if an American went pheasant hunting in a tie his friends would subdue him and call for the short white van (viz., the Looney Bin). So there may yet be hope...

With greetings and felicitations from the slobocracy, I look forward to your comments.

Bruce

 

[vintage.vendeuse]

Greetings from a fellow Anglophile! I, too, am of English ancestry (I don't have to go back very far... my mother was born and raised in England). I'm lucky enough to be planning a visit across the pond this coming summer.
I'll leave it to the gentlemen here to address the points in your post, I just wanted to say hello!

 

[Stanley Doble]

The country is going to the demnation bow-wows.

 

[Yesteryear]

The growing trend towards more casual clothing is prominent on both sides of the ocean. Look at a picture of 1910s America and you will see just as many bowler hats and starched collars as you would in London at that time. In our fast paced internet world fashion trends fly across the Atlantic at the speed of light, the world has become much smaller because of it.

Britain is holding out better than the rest of us (It is, after all, the only place you can still buy a properly starched collar) but the island has ultimately jumped on the casual bandwagon.

 

[Stearmen]

The country is going to the demnation bow-wows.

"Going to the DEMNITION bow wows." Charles Dickens: Nicholas Nickleby

 

[Jim Flynn]

I would say there is something of a resurgence for dressing smartly but in the modern contemporary style of very fitted suits and narrow trousers. There is also a renaissance of classic mens hairstyles of the 40's and 50's. As for classic English tailoring, it is very expensive so bespoke suits, shirts and shoes are a thing of the past for the majority of people that draw a wage, even our lacklustre overpaid politicians.

 

[Two Types]

Three piece suits have made a comeback recently but most are styled wrong for anyone but the skinniest of youths. Good clothing is available to those who can afford it but even a lot of high end clothing is badly styled for the modern figure.
I would agree with you that fings ain't what they used to be but I never give up hope. If designers could just get trousers to reach up to the waist (rather than leaving four inches of no-man's land between the waist and the waistband) we would really be looking up.
And if wages could keep pace with housing costs, then maybe people would actually have enough money to think about dressing well.

 

[herringbonekid]

BruSwain, i'm slightly baffled as to why you're singling out British men, when style the world over isn't what it used to be.

are you one of those Americans who thinks that if you visit england it will be like stepping into an episode of Poirot ?

 

[Edward]

As to a couple of specific points in the OP:

1] Casualisation has taken over men's fashion as much in the Uk as anywhere elsed in the world sicne the 60s. There's been a slight renaissance in dressing up a bit more in recent years, but that's been overexaggerated by the fashion press, and in any case where you do see it it's more Barney Stinson than Beau Brummell. I recently attended a 'formal' dinner at work. The dress code on the invitation was "formal / black tie optional" - i.e. the lounge suit is now considered formal. I'm not entirely sure where the expectation comes from the England would be different.... maybe the same pop culture that has so many across the world believing that in Ireland we still live in thatched cottages, don't have television, keep pigs in the house (all real assumptions made by citizens of one particular country, in my experience).

2] Bespoke: only the very, very elite - by which I mean rich - wear Savile Row now, forf the simple reason that the average price of a two-piece suit on the row is now GBP4,000.00. Starting price, that is. You can get something a bit cheaper from the off the peg collections that have moved in on the Row (Oswald Boateng for one), but not massively so. Still be over a grand for two pieces. Outside of London, bespoke will still cost £800 or so for a three piece suit (not bad, compared to the off the rack prices for big designer brands; even OTR Old Town will cost you that). The average man in the street either can't afford that at all, or can't justify it, given he can acquire a high street suit that's 'good enough' for the wedding and funeral he might attend every few years (the only occasions when many wear suits any more).

3] Our elected representatives can mostly afford to dress well, but choose not to. There's a strong-rooted, negative stereotype of the sharp-suited politician that kicks around; any MP who dares to wear bespoke is likely to be pilloried for it, or at least subjected to the strong suspicion that he doesn't understand "ordinary, working people" and such. Even on the more 'big business' side of the House, dressing 'down' is prevalent. It's a calculated strategy to appeal to "the common man", as much as the few in politics who dress up, such as Nigel Farage (UKIP leader and MEP, though not as of yet an MP), are often trying to sell themselves to a particular constituency who can identify with the look. Nigel sells himself as standing up for British tradition, so he dresses in a traditional British countrywear way. Boris Johnson, currently the London Mayor, wants to sell himself with particular image, so he wears purposefully rumpled suits, and ruffles his hair prior to making public appearances.

The fashion for gonig tie-less in Westminster is a relaively recent affectation, mostly down to the current Prime Minister. Cameron has always been rather sensitive about his "posh" background (he is apparently a cousin of Brenda), and goes to an extent to portray himself as 'an ordinary sort of chap'. It's also part of a calculated image to portray the sort of hard-wroking man who has either flung the tie off to get down to it, or doesn't have time at all for such friperies. Back in the eighties they used to loosen the tie and unbutton the shirt to achieve the same effect.

Three piece suits have made a comeback recently but most are styled wrong for anyone but the skinniest of youths. Good clothing is available to those who can afford it but even a lot of high end clothing is badly styled for the modern figure.
I would agree with you that fings ain't what they used to be but I never give up hope. If designers could just get trousers to reach up to the waist (rather than leaving four inches of no-man's land between the waist and the waistband) we would really be looking up.
And if wages could keep pace with housing costs, then maybe people would actually have enough money to think about dressing well.

It's perhaps ironic that the old, Engilsh working class tradition of dressing up and going in hock to pay for a sharp suit in installments has disappeared in this age of easy credit and debt-as-norm to pay for all sorts of consumer must-haves.... Though of course maybe folks still do that and it's just not obvious because the clothes that are considered to mark an aspiratio0nal lifestyle are now so casualised?

BruSwain, i'm slightly baffled as to why you're singling out British men, when style the world over isn't what it used to be.

are you one of those Americans who thinks that if you visit england it will be like stepping into an episode of Poirot ?

It does seem somewhat naive to think England hasn't changed since 1963 in that regard.

 

[Yesteryear]

Would I be fair in asking why Americans don't wear cowboy boots and big-brim hats like they used too?

 

[mattface]

Would I be fair in asking why Americans don't wear cowboy boots and big-brim hats like they used too?

That's the perfect response. I've noticed in plenty of British movies the "American" characters often wear cowboy hats and speak with a bad approximation of a Texas accent. Far from being offended by the stereotype, it gives me a bit of insight into the narrowness of my own perception of Britts. Pretty sure they don't all wear driver hats and speak in a Cockney accent any more than they all wear 3-piece bespoke suits, and speak in clipped aristocratic accents. Furthermore I would assume that mass media has had the same homogenizing effect in England that it has here.

Regional accents and styles have largely blended into the one presented on movies and TV, and the fashion cycles from urban centers out into the smaller towns have compressed such that you can't really peg someone as a city slicker, or country bumpkin just by looking at them. Though there are SOME regional differences, the fact that most of us shop online and have much greater choice and broader influence means that most of us probably would NOT be pegged as "Americans" walking down the street in London wether we were wearing Levis, flannels, and Red Wing boots, or a 3-Piece suit and bowler hat, in face we'd probably be MORE likely to stand out in the latter. The "Americana" fashion trends of recent years are at least as popular in Europe and Asia as they are here in the U.S. form what I can tell. Then again suits and bow ties, and tweeds are making a real comeback as well. This is good news for those of us who like these things, because it means we can walk into a store, and find new stuff in our size, and we don't have to be at the mercy of the vintage marketplace. (OTOH more competition for the great vintage pieces)

 

[tropicalbob]

I was thinking also of stereotypes, but (and perhaps more to the point) what I miss are the regional and national styles of dress. When I first visited way back in 1971, the English didn't dress like anyone else. Jackets were cut slimmer and with higher armholes, and there was just something peculiar to their style that differentiated them from the Europeans.

 

[esteban68]

it's all pretty much been said, however there is hope ......I live in a north Midlands market town of Chesterfield just south of Sheffield, the area was pretty much industrial on the outskirts of the Peak District national park and Chatsworth house is almost on my doorstep.....not too long ago it was the playground of the wealthy aristos used for hunting, even today up in the Dales you still see the local hunt out in their red coats and people shooting grouse and pheasant and thus plenty of folk still in traditional country clothing especially at the weekend.
Many of the older locals still make the effort and on visiting our local theatre tweed sports coats and blue blazers can be seen a plenty along with shirts, ties and decent trad shoes.....as for the younger generation well they're young but many are following the trad preppy skinny chic, the real downer is when you go to a curry house or dare I say it a football /soccer match and you see 40 something males dressed like teenage boys mainly it has to be said in 'fashion' clothing chosen by their wives!

 

[BruSwain]

BruSwain, i'm slightly baffled as to why you're singling out British men, when style the world over isn't what it used to be.

are you one of those Americans who thinks that if you visit england it will be like stepping into an episode of Poirot ?

Allow me to unbaffle you. I'm not naive about the tendency of American trends to leap overseas (God help you). Hope you're enjoying all those baseball caps, baggy pants with waistbands ten inches below the navel, etc. Our culture often spreads like a virus.

If I singled out the British it's because I think there's a worldwide perception of the image of the well-dressed British gent. Whether through movies, print or other media I'd wager someone in, say, Latvia, upon being shown a picture of a man in a chesterfield coat and bowler will assume (as would I) he's looking at an Englishman. Furthermore, as noted in my original post, I've paid attention to things British for many years and I have a fondness for the style of British menswear. I admit I don't know how the men of Buenos Aires are dressing these days. Here in the wilds of Wisconsin I see more from the U.K. on my own TV than any other country in the world; the common language no doubt has much to do with that, or the "special relationship." That may be my own fault and I admit some insularity in that regard. I did say, remember, that I'm an Anglophile (as opposed to a Francophile or any other phile you wish to name).

I hope your question about "one of those Americans" wasn't as snotty as it looks in print. I have said nothing mean-spirited here. But you may be responding to an American cliche or archetype and perhaps I'm doing the same in reverse. For the record, I do not believe that every adult British male goes about in striped trousers and a morning coat, as I hope you don't believe every adult male American wears jeans and cowboy boots.

Bruce

 

[Lord Flashheart]

At the risk of being called a Curmudgeon by some, I assume we are all aware that the terms "British" and "English" mean different things and are not interchangable?

 

[esteban68]

Greetings from a fellow Anglophile! I, too, am of English ancestry (I don't have to go back very far... my mother was born and raised in England). I'm lucky enough to be planning a visit across the pond this coming summer.
I'll leave it to the gentlemen here to address the points in your post, I just wanted to say hello!

Let me know nearer the time and if your in my neck of the woods I'll do a bit of digging around to see what's on vintage wise locally and point you to a few places where vintage can be found.
I believe you can fly in to Manchester airport from the USA? trains run to Chesterfield and our local Casa hotel is often used by American visitors....we have a very good antique flea and collectors fair every Thursday in our open air cobbled market granted a license in the 12th century.....surrounding countryside is pretty stunning with quite a few castles and stately homes close by.....oh and we have a Crooked Spire the only one like it in the world.

 

[herringbonekid]

Bruce,

what you're defining as a 'British' style is in decline certainly, for reasons already mentioned, and has been in decline since about 1958, despite the spike of interest in tailoring in the last ten years or so.

however, you need only wander down Savile Row or Jermyn Street to see that the British style is very much still alive as a 'look'. the brand Hackett is built around romanticised imagery of university boat races, stately homes and gentle eccentricity, and the 'look' sells especially well to the rest of Europe (and the Far East). globalisation cuts all ways. Italians want to look British. Brits want to look American. everyone loses their national identity... which is why i was surprised you singled out British style as not being what it was. which country's style is what it was ?

(p.s. i'd also say that the style tropes you've mentioned are more specifically a 'London' look rather than a 'British' look).

 

[GHT]

I'm sorry to say I don't see many fellas dressed to the nines other than giving a shout-out to HRH who's generally pretty spiffy. Perhaps the politicians aren't typical and I shouldn't judge by them but I assume they represent a cross-section of British society. Or perhaps they're too steeped in serious purpose (as Bertie Wooster might put it) to give a damn about how they dress. Mercifully, it appears a current "fashion" here for wearing an open collar shirt with a suit hasn't (yet) crossed the pond (or maybe I just haven't seen it). The ridiculousness of that trend astounds me. I'd almost rather see tee-shirts and jeans than pinstripes and an open collar.

The open neck worn with a suit looks so naff, I really don't like it.

Some years ago there was an MP whose style I'd consider a fine example. I've forgotten his name other than to say he was a doctor (whether medical or professorial I don't know). He wore fine suits, shirts with detachable cutaway collar, and on down to the bar end of a pocket watch chain in the buttonhole of his lapel. And of course there was a pocket hankie. If I can put it this way, he reeked British gentleman.

Just a guess, but your description fits the late Sir Gerald Nabaro perfectly:



The golden era that most of us think of was actually an era of great poverty, for the masses. The image portrayed by the Hollywood silverscreen, was far removed from the everyday life of most people. The image of Captain Peacock, the character in: Are You Being Served, is conjured up by many and although that sitcom was set in a fictional time in the sixties, in Jeremy Lloyd's head, (he was the author who had the original idea,) the time was the 1940's post war, when he was a junior, working in Simpson's of Piccadilly.

Peacock was, of course, a military man, and perhaps that's the crux of your observation. Up and until 1960, we had conscription, (the Draft) compulsory two year military service. 18 year olds had a shock lesson in personal appearance, personal hygiene and personal image, all without the help of their mother. For most, it stayed with them for a lifetime.

Should we give credence to appearance? Hard to say, I know that whenever I watch a TV program that's about some specialist subject of some brevity, the so called expert is usually a professor from a distinguished university. That professor always seems to look like Christopher Lloyd as Doctor Emmett "Doc" Brown. The character from the movie: Back to the Future.

 

[Rabbit]

The English wrote the book, and that was before the whole American trend-spilling thing even got started. For this reason alone I believe it's perfectly legitimate to single out the English - or the British - to ponder on the subject of the decline in standards, just for exercise.

I think Edward summed it up rather nicely.

What I find rather baffling myself is that so many of today's customers of London's tailors, both on and off the row, seem to aspire so completely to the 2010s suit cuts with narrow legs, rower rise and all that. Not all of them do, though. For instance, Will Boehlke, an American who wears mostly bespoke of other provenance I believe, looks more British than some of the bespoke blogging chaps in London, like Simon Crompton.

 

[The Good]

I'm not sure about how common this practice is in London, or other parts of Britain, but I do have something to say about the tieless suit fashion. To me, an open-necked shirt is not a bad look, especially if worn with a shirt color other than just white, but it strikes me as unimaginative if the wearer is wearing a white shirt and a dark business suit, and done so often. It's a look that's become too commonplace to have any novelty to it, anymore, and the white tieless shirt is rather naked looking with a suit. I could get behind it for sports jackets, occasionally, but to put on a whole suit, I feel as though I may as well complete it. Ties are really far more creative than modern creative types give them credit for. At places like the electronics companies of Silicon Valley and elsewhere in California, it is supposed to be looked down upon to wear a tie to work, while everyone wearing tieless dress shirts, polos, or t-shirts is OK. What is it about the anti-necktie sentiment that has become so strong? Have ties made any comeback at these electronics corporations, like Apple or Google, in recent years? If not the usual necktie, then I'd like to see at least cravats fill in the gap.

The English wrote the book, and that was before the whole American trend-spilling thing even got started. For this reason alone I believe it's perfectly legitimate to single out the English - or the British - to ponder on the subject of the decline in standards, just for exercise.

I think Edward summed it up rather nicely.

What I find rather baffling myself is that so many of today's customers of London's tailors, both on and off the row, seem to aspire so completely to the 2010s suit cuts with narrow legs, lower rise and all that. Not all of them do, though. For instance, Will Boehlke, an American who wears mostly bespoke of other provenance I believe, looks more British than some of the bespoke blogging chaps in London, like Simon Crompton.

I'd like for relatively narrow pant legs to remain in fashion, but they should generally raise the rise two or three inches, and have even higher rise available.