Ireland during the war

[dhermann1]

The "Irish situation" only proves the old maxim that there is nothing more dangerous than a weak neighbor.

 

[Mr. 'H']

The "Irish situation" only proves the old maxim that there is nothing more dangerous than a weak neighbor.

[huh]

Sorry, I didn't quite catch that... (I actually haven't heard that expression before!).

Do you mean Ireland or Britain?

 

[dhermann1]

I read a good book on the English Civil Wars last year ("The Civil War: The Wars of the Three Kingdoms" by Trevor Royle), and that's one of the points I got from it. Having a weak neighbor like Ireland tempted foreign powers to use it as a base to threaten Britain (e.g. France and Spain). Also the perpetual instability in Ireland added to the situation. And of course the English in their minds grossly over inflated the perceived danger. It certainly doesn't justify the brutality perpetrated by the Brits in that country, but it gives a little bit of an explanation. The wars of the 1640's both in England and in Ireland were staggeringly bloody and destructive, even by today's standards.

 

[Mr. 'H']

Gotcha now....

 

[Mojito]

You raise some good points, Mikepara. I, too, am of Irish heritage, and was raised with a wealth of Irish history, much of it pertaining to the Irish War of Independence (the "Black and Tan War"). It is also a period of particular historic interest to me. My grandfather worked for a Catholic charity in a small country town, and assisted many Irish Catholics who had migrated to escape atrocities and property destruction committed by the Auxies and the Tans. I hold a British passport and do so proudly - I admire the British people, and believe that they would never have allowed the situation in Ireland in 1919-1921 to have progressed as it did had they known the true state of matters. Indeed, British popular opinion is one of the factors that forced their Government to the negotiating table, along with the pressures exerted by Irish nationalists. I do, however, understand any lingering bitterness during WWII dating to the centuries of occupation. Ireland's neutrality (somewhat biased towards the Allies), however, strikes me as much a political/military necessity as anything else - as was recognised by many members of the British Government.

Britain didn't recruit any criminal scum into the RIC Police Auxiliary [Black and Tans] They did recruit policemen and demobbed Army / Navy officers.

It is a long-standing myth that the Black and Tans were the scourings of British Gaols - they were not. As Mikepara points out, they were most ex army/navy or police. Many were frustrated ex-soliders, Tommies who had faced unemployment and indifference on the part of the public when they returned from the Western Front. Service in Ireland offered them decent pay - 10 shillings a day - plus food in board. They also had the unofficial assurance that they were there to make Ireland a hell for rebels. While some behaved decently, many did not. Most had no ties to Ireland, no stake in her future, and became frustrated with fighting a guerilla war.

There are two forces working together here, by the way - the Royal Irish Constabulary Force (the "Black and Tans") and the Royal Irish Constabulary Auxiliary Force (the "Auxiliaries" or "Auxies"). The latter were drawn from the British officer class.

They where not a Regiment but Police and they where there on the direct wish of the Chief Constable, because the IRA where hindering recruitment by killing or intimidating the majority Catholic peelers. Remember the Protestants only had ascendency in the North and that included the police.

While intimidation was no doubt a factor in the problems faced by the ordinary RIC, another was that many of the Irish Catholics had sympathies with the nationalist cause, and did not wish to be involved in action against their fellow countrymen. There is a famous case where a group of RIC men resigned after recieving orders from their new British commander, Divisional Police Commissioner for Munster, Colonel Smythe, to cause as much destruction as they could, and shoot to kill. After he told them that the more they did this the better he would like them, and that there would be no official punishment if they did kill, a spokesmen for the RIC group, Constable Jeremiah Mee, addressed him, stating: 'By your accent I take it you are an Englishman. You forget you are addressing Irishmen.' He placed his cap, belt and bayonet on a table in front of the Colonel and continued: 'These too are English. Take them as a present from me, and to hell with you, you murderer.' He was supported in this action by both Protestant and Catholic RIC men.

Yes the Auxies where hated, yes in some cases they beat and killed people who could have been arrested. The fast majority did a good martial policing job and did arrest and decently treat many more IRA members and sympathizers out of the 1000's of incidents in the 'tan wars' there where a handful of tit for tat atrocities.

I think that there is evidence of quite widespread destruction caused by the Black and Tans and Auxies. The reprisals on the part of the Tans, when they took place, were often at the expense of civilians. 1920 - the Year of Terror as it still remembered in Ireland - saw the sacking and burning of small towns like Trim, Balbriggan, Thurles and Templemore. In reprisal for the killing of three RIC men in Tralee, they besieged the town - businesses were closed, no food allowed in for a week, and three local men were shot. The burning of Cork, one of the outrages of the war, crowned their efforts. Chief Secretary for Ireland, Sir Hamar Greenwood, put up a disgraceful performance in Westminster when he claimed no responsibility on the part of the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries for the burning, and even claimed that they were responsible for saving the city from complete destruction! (It was no wonder that "telling a Hamar" became slang for lying in Ireland). The events in Cork, however, helped change public opinion in Britain on the course of action the British Government was pursuing, and helped lay the path for the Treaty negotiations.

Michael Collins made quite a name for himself by killing informers and peelers. Cookie is wrong to suggest, by implication that it is only a crime to kill someone in pre 1922 British ruled Ireland if that person wasn't a member of the Crown Forces.

Yes, Michael Collins did a remarkable job of attacking the British intelligence network. He was quite surgical about it, too - he despised waste, and so tried to identify and remove individuals so as to achieve maximum effect with minimum carnage. Absolutely ruthless, though, once someone was identified as a threat. Once the order was given, it had to be carried out. A most remarkable man, who once told Cathal Brugha "You'll get none of my men for that" when the latter had proposed a policy of assassination of British Cabinet Ministers and random terror attacks in British theatres. The Croke Park episode, mentioned above, is illustrative of both his methods and of the brutal and indiscrimate reprisals that led to the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries being so despised.

This first "Bloody Sunday" was triggered by Collins' picked men - the 12 Apostles - swooping on and nearly wiping out a group of British intelligence men. They were tracked down and shot in dawn raids where they stayed. In retaliation, RIC and Auxilieries raided the match at Croke Park that afternoon, firing randomly into the crowd. Their flimsy pretext was that there were 'IRA Sentries' who opened fire first - a pretext that even British newspapers at the time dismissed. Spectators attempting to flee by climbing over the wall were shot by forces waiting outside. By the time the shooting stopped, seven people had been shot to death, five more were fatally wounded, and two had been trampled to death by the crowd.

You just have to see what the new Irish Free State did to the anti treaty IRA rebels. They shot and hung and massacred many more IRA men than Britain did and the Treaty war was much worse casualty wize than the war for independance.

It is an important and overlooked point that more men were killed during the Irish Civil War that followed the War of Independence than were killed during it. Indeed, it can be argued that the Irish War of Independence had many of the elements of a civil war, as it often pitched Irishman against Irishman rather than against the British. In saying that, I don't exonerate the British Government from its role in setting up the situation that led to the Civil War. The Civil War, a terrible and embittering time, is one of the greatest of tragedies in the long history of the Irish troubles. Increasing desperation lead to some ghastly atrocities on both sides, and the killing only ground to a halt following a brutal policy of the execution of Republican prisinors (notably the introduction of this policy happened after the death of Michael Collins in 1922 - we'll never know, but I doubt whether he would ever have put someone like Erskine Childers before a firing squad). Prolonged struggle had led to brutalisation, and Ireland emerged exhausted and with a bitterness that would endure for several generations.

It is one of the greatest joys to me personally to see the Irish Republic that has arisen today from the ashes of that old bitterness and misery. I've spent a lot of time over there, and this prosperous, affluent, culturally rich nation has turned around centuries of oppression and suffering to emerge as the Celtic Tiger. Finally no longer haemoraghing its population, and enjoying record rates of low unemployment and wealth, it is one of the world's great success stories.

 

[mikepara]

Well said.

Mojito, thanks for elaborating so nicely the points I was trying briefly to put. For the first time in 700 years there is a normality over the whole of Ireland. It will be interesting to see if the eventual inevitable unification will be peaceful. Probably only if the recent 30 years of Troubles are a distant memory by then.

A nation once again?

 

[cookie]

Thanks for clearing up Ireland 1920 for everyone - MOjito

Sometimes this forum - our Lounge - just takes itself up a notch and this discussion on Ireland had been one of the best. Politics yes but discussed in a rational and historically (not hysterically!) interesting perspective rather than the old 'he said... she said'.

Congrats Mo' - I now know a whole lot more about the issue than I did yesterday.

Onya!

Cookie

 

[Mojito]

Thanks for the kind comments, Mikepara and Cookie Cookie, I truly believe that a full understanding of the past can allow us to move forward...and one of the marks of the Irish Republic's maturity as a nation is the more rounded view of the past that their historians take now. This includes shining a light on neglected corners of Irish history, like WWII neutrality and the Irish Civil War. In the dramatic arts, too, these areas are being explored. One of my great mates is Dublin journalist/author who I share maritime research with, but with whom I also share an interest in Irish history. He has recently written a fascinating, balanced book on an episode of 19th Century Fenian history, and it was extremely well received (even named one of the top ten non-fiction Irish books of the year by the Irish Times). Although undoubtedly a nationalist, he takes a very rounded view of history. For example, when Kevin Barry's body was reinterred in Glasnevin, he not only sent me clippings dealing with Barry, he also took the time to relate research he'd done on one of the young English tommies who died in the ambush that lead to Barry's execution - a man largely forgotten since his death so many decades ago.

Mikepara, I do hope to see Ireland a united nation once again, and hopefully in my lifetime. But, of course, that is for the Irish people themselves to decide - and hopefully to decide without the sort of pogroms we saw in the post-Treaty period, the intimidation and civil rights violations of more recent decades, and the threats from paramilitary groups on both sides of the Loyalist and Republican divide. I wish them well, whatever course they choose, and with recent developments in Northern Ireland feel hopeful that a lasting peace can be achieved, whether as part of an Irish Republic or as part of the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.