Interesting information about Horween leather

[Hh121]

https://www.thetanneryrow.com/leath...ns&ss_campaign_sent_date=2021-01-29T16:01:32Z

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Thanks for posting.

Something to keep in mind though is that a lot of stores, jacket makers, and even tanneries use "top grain" interchangeably with "full grain." Even if we accept that these are the true definitions as listed in the article, that doesn't mean that the people using those terms all the time are referring to the same thing.

 

[jglf]

So it seems that cxl and Nubuck are on the opposite spectrums of corrected top grain leather. I use to think that all corrected leather was embossed or plated but it seems that some of it is just sanded to varying degrees and then dyed.

 

[jonbuilder]

https://www.thetanneryrow.com/leather101/2016/9/8/moksha-sample-blog-post-01?ss_source=sscampaigns&ss_campaign_id=600f4e458b88bf036a1d3a84&ss_email_id=6014310f95c7ae39a8f58d83&ss_campaign_name=Leather+101:+Leather+Grains&ss_campaign_sent_date=2021-01-29T16:01:32Z

at last, I understand thank you for posting.

 

[Hh121]

Thanks for posting.

Something to keep in mind though is that a lot of stores, jacket makers, and even tanneries use "top grain" interchangeably with "full grain." Even if we accept that these are the true definitions as listed in the article, that doesn't mean that the people using those terms all the time are referring to the same thing.

Absolutely.
I had a conversation with Horween salesman recently and he told me CXL is corrected(I was asking for more grain hide) and I was surprised. I remembered in your video you also point out that CXL doesn't have much grain.
Anyway, this article just makes me more confused.

 

[jonbuilder]

Thanks for posting.

Something to keep in mind though is that a lot of stores, jacket makers, and even tanneries use "top grain" interchangeably with "full grain." Even if we accept that these are the true definitions as listed in the article, that doesn't mean that the people using those terms all the time are referring to the same thing.

Well considering the article's definitions full-grain is top-grain and top gain is full-grain I can understand the interchangeably. Just not all top grain is full-grain. Top grain can also be corrected grain

 

[handymike]

Interesting piece. It would be a great addition to this thread:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/full-grain-v-top-grain.77070/

 

[AeroFan_07]

I bought one copy of Gear Patrol in 2018. To my shocked amazement; they did an in-depth tour of Horween for that exact issue. I still have the paper copy, here is the same article online:

https://www.gearpatrol.com/style/a519794/inside-horween-leather-co-americas-legendary-tannery/

One thing that really impressed me is that is such an "analog" production facility. The employees learn they can tell by "feel" and sense or smell that something is or is not right. Technology has it's limits. I was very glad to see that thier operation is primairly still done the old school way.

 

[TheDonEffect]

Yeah, so often in industry terms become interchangeable, or varies by region, etc, just look at how meat cut names differ by region (butt vs shoulder for example), and so often people associate quality when things (think organic) when sometimes it shouldn't. I figured CXL was sanded or something because it's really flat, compared to say a Shinki that seems to have more pebbling. I don't get caught up anymore with top, full, etc grain, just like I don't get caught up seeing "genuine" leather.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Well considering the article's definitions full-grain is top-grain and top gain is full-grain I can understand the interchangeably. Just not all top grain is full-grain. Top grain can also be corrected grain

Yeah like how CXL is corrected grain technically.

Even my RMC in Shinki is 'corrected' because it has the pattern pressed into it even though it's made from full grain Shinki.

 

[Cornelius]

I bought one copy of Gear Patrol in 2018. To my shocked amazement; they did an in-depth tour of Horween for that exact issue. I still have the paper copy, here is the same article online:

https://www.gearpatrol.com/style/a519794/inside-horween-leather-co-americas-legendary-tannery/

One thing that really impressed me is that is such an "analog" production facility. The employees learn they can tell by "feel" and sense or smell that something is or is not right. Technology has it's limits. I was very glad to see that thier operation is primairly still done the old school way.

It's definitely old school. A former job used to frequently take me past the Horween tannery where Elston & Ashland meet on Chicago's northside. Enormous brick & wood compound that looks unchanged since ~1885. And the smell in summer! I used to pity those working inside in August.

That neighborhood was an island of industry in the midst of gentrifying neighborhoods on the city's prosperous northside. A concrete plant, a scrap metal recycling yard, a series of enormous machine sheds for repairing snowplows & garbage trucks from the city motorpool; and most famously, Finkl Steel - you'd feel a blast of heat from their open overhead foundry doors while biking past on Cortland, even in winter. Also home to a wonderful working-class tavern called The Hideout. Not to get into politics here, but our past Mayor, Rahm Emanuel, engineered a rather suspect deal with major property developers & his brother's(!) entertainment company to turn a giant swath of this industrial property into a city-within-a-city, complete with 50-story skyscrapers and a giant sport & concert venue to be run by... his brother's business.


It's made me fear somewhat for Horween's future, as I doubt condo-dwelling millionaires will cotton to the scent of hides tanning in Chicago's humid summers. They could move, I suppose, but you can tell Horween is the sort of operation very much tied to that sprawling 19th Century compound.

You can read more about that industrial zone's transition here, with a free Horween photo thrown in.

 

[Monitor]

Even my RMC in Shinki is 'corrected' because it has the pattern pressed into it even though it's made from full grain Shinki.

It's no longer full-grain if it's corrected. The moment the natural texture of any leather is altered, leather stops being full grain.

Or rather, every leather ever that hasn't had the top coat removed/sanded/embossed/whatever is full grain.

I suspected CXL is either sanded or flattened to some degree as it's sometimes too shiny and flat but then again, sometimes it's crazy grainy and rich in natural texture.

So it seems that cxl and Nubuck are on the opposite spectrums of corrected top grain leather.

Nubuck is either heavily sanded leather or split, depends on what the company working in it decided it will be but there's also no grain to it. I don't consider it neither full nor top grain leather.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

It's no longer full-grain if it's corrected. The moment the natural texture of any leather is altered, leather stops being full grain.

Or rather, every leather ever that hasn't had the top coat removed/sanded/embossed/whatever is full grain.

I suspected CXL is either sanded or flattened to some degree as it's sometimes too shiny and flat but then again, sometimes it's crazy grainy and rich in natural texture.



Nubuck is either heavily sanded leather or split, depends on what the company working in it decided it will be but there's also no grain to it. I don't consider it neither full nor top grain leather.

Yeah I know. What I was saying is that they weren't taking some cheaper leather and covering up flaws, instead they took full grain, expensive, high quality Shinki and put a pattern into it, making it no longer full grain.

Trust me, I'm not defending it. The leather is the only part of this jacket that I don't love.

 

[Monitor]

Yeah I know. What I was saying is that they weren't taking some cheaper leather and covering up flaws, instead they took full grain, expensive, high quality Shinki and put a pattern into it, making it no longer full grain.

Trust me, I'm not defending it. The leather is the only part of this jacket that I don't love.

Nor am I attacking it. But I don't like it, either. They ought to have just left it alone and made the best jacket ever.

Does it crease?

 

[TREEMAN]

Too many variables with these classifications. You could have a lousy untouched full grain hide and a wonderful ever so slightly sanded top grain hide. There should be a category of the choicest hides..........

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Nor am I attacking it. But I don't like it, either. They ought to have just left it alone and made the best jacket ever.

Does it crease?

Agreed. It would have been perfect with a standard hide. It fits so well and I love the design so much that I still am thrilled with the jacket overall, but the hide was the reason I did not buy it on the initial run.

It is creasing, but I haven't been able to wear it as much as I have wanted with COVID. Hopefully next year I can put a lot more wear into it and see how the hide develops. I would love for that printed grain to sort of disappear/blend in with the creases and folds that form from wear.

 

[ton312]

Ultimately, I wonder if it’s all moot. Wear any leather long enough, let it breakdown, mold to your form, fade, patina, etc and I suspect it’s origins begin to matter very little.
(Insert pic of Brooks CR here).

Imho, It takes more than leather to make a jacket cool, and the hide only accomplishes about 10%-20% of the job.

 

[navetsea]

yeah, wearer's grains is the best grain, wear it long enough your own movement will create new organic grains that relates to the creases and making a lot more sense to the jacket. (only from what I see) I havent wear my jackets hard enough to earn mine.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Ultimately, I wonder if it’s all moot. Wear any leather long enough, let it breakdown, mold to your form, fade, patina, etc and I suspect it’s origins begin to matter very little.
(Insert pic of Brooks CR here).

Imho, It takes more than leather to make a jacket cool, and the hide only accomplishes about 10%-20% of the job.

Very well said. That's why I bought the jacket despite not loving the leather and that's why it's vying for the top spot in my collection despite me not liking the leather any more than when I first got it.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Ultimately, I wonder if it’s all moot. Wear any leather long enough, let it breakdown, mold to your form, fade, patina, etc and I suspect it’s origins begin to matter very little.
(Insert pic of Brooks CR here).

Imho, It takes more than leather to make a jacket cool, and the hide only accomplishes about 10%-20% of the job.

Nicely put and I guess that's my view. Everyone is different, but how a leather looks on a new jacket doesn't much interest me (unless it is appalling) what matters is the wear.