Indiana Jones V

[Seb Lucas]

If they do get someone new Harrison Ford should be no where near the thing. This could only demonstrate how much better Ford is to the replacement. A comparison is risky. The best years for Indy are the 1930's. Surely they can just go back there and start afresh. If Indy is supposed to be born in around 1900 they could even start them in the late 1920's. Maybe it's just me but I don't think the adventurer archaeologist format works as a post war idea.

 

[scottyrocks]

This is the main reason I never watched The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles--after seeing River Phoenix playing young Indy in Last Crusade, I knew I didn't want to see more. I know that was intended to show Indy was passionate about archaeology from a young age, and secondarily where he got his "sense of style" with the leather jacket and fedora, but to me it was just silly.

If they're going to give the role to Chris Pratt they'd better hurry, 'cause he's the same age now that Harrison Ford was when they filmed Raiders. But then, they wouldn't necessarily need to do "prequel" movies, would they? There are still untold adventures between Temple of Doom, Raiders, Last Crusade, and Crystal Skull.

I was excited to see TYIJC when it originally aired, but I was instantly struck by how 'wrong' the vibe was. Without the hat, you could never have convinced me it was an IJ story. In fact, even with the hat, it was barely an IJ story.

Yes, I'm an IJ fan, but for Raiders for the most part. I'll watch LC, CS is barely watchable, and ToD is unwatchable, for me, that is.

I think they could do prequels with Pratt, as age ranges can extend quite a few years either way of an actor's age.

 

[MikeKardec]

The story that's not been told is one where the McGuffin relates to the other major world faith group - Islam. Raiders - Judaism, Temple - Hinduism, Crusade - Christianity. I think it would be hard to make that without real risk of causing offence in some way (nor, frankly, would I wish to see a film where they caused a lot of offence when that can be avoided).

An interesting observation. I hate to think that anything is off limits but I wouldn't want to become Slaman Rushdie either. That said, I wonder if it can't be circumvented. There's a lot of pre islamic myth that probably could probably be utilized and the Sufi/Ismaili believers are less prone to offense. They have great history.

I wove an Indiana Jones style story around the spiritual world of the Borneo tribes in The Diamond of Jeru (see the Dramatized Audio Book rather than the movie for the best rendition of these themes) and, hopefully, I came up with something that wasn't a like a westerner being patronizing or grotesquely getting things wrong. We had several guys from both Indonesian and Malaysian Borneo in the cast (not Dyaks to be sure but we were able cross reference their knowledge), they kept us headed in the right direction. Not going right at someone's beliefs and good research is key. Our bad guys supposedly had been thrown out of many of the Dyak tribes AND one of the protagonists actually created the reason underlying their "evil" and so we got a kind of human depth as well as some distance from insulting anyone's beliefs. On the other hand, in the Audio we had a lot of time to gently work our way into the material. As much as it worked for the story in the Audio, I never would have had the chutzpah to wave a bunch of Dyak religion and tradition at a TV executive ... that's a path to permanent discredit.

I'm pretty comfortable feeling that you can inoculate a lot of stories if you're given free reign by the powers that be and you approach the subject with respect. Of course these days someone is always looking to feel abused so you are never really safe.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Yes, I've long said that the story ideas for Jones are no longer readily possible unless they pick a dead culture with no antecedents to get upset by the plot and depiction. And I think that's largely fair enough.

Let's face it, the cod mythology and cultural appropriations of the Jones films were always reckless and infantilizing. Temple of Doom could be seen as particularly offensive. Jones as a white saviour of coloured peoples was something that I remember people in the 1980's finding off. Imagine now.

I guess the writers could mine some dead religion or a Celtic myth. Or ancient Greek. Whatever. There's a lot of cod mythology and ethnographic interest out there to plunder. The trick is doing it so it doesn't feel crass and insipid, like National Treasure or Laura Croft. Since Jones was created, the adventurer, treasure hunter oeuvre has been done to death and appropriated by so many others it is almost impossible to make this type of material fresh again.

I also think the compulsory vengeance of supernatural powers at the end of each film is a climax banality that is almost impossible to make interesting again.

If they do another one I almost think they should do it as a serious story that plays with the form and perhaps challenges the cliches. Maybe there could be part two to the Ark story by way of closure, but this time it is IBM that wants it.... Disney is unlikely to do anything interesting.

 

[MikeKardec]

I've long said that the story ideas for Jones are no longer readily possible unless they pick a dead culture with no antecedents to get upset by the plot and depiction. And I think that's largely fair enough.

Norse anything would work, especially in relation to Nazis. I'm kind of over the faux religious stuff the Nazis were trying to create for themselves ... it seems too late in their trajectory and therefore pitiful. There is a story there but it's subtle and detailed rather than the a bunch of running around an "action" film would require.

There's a lot of cod mythology and ethnographic interest out there to plunder. The trick is doing it so it doesn't feel crass and insipid, like National Treasure or Laura Croft. Since Jones was created, the adventurer, treasure hunter oeuvre has been done to death and appropriated by so many others it is almost impossible to make this type of material fresh again.

Again, probably too subtle and detailed but he could actually do some ARCHEOLOGY as opposed to grave robbing. As I mentioned in my post above though you'd be hard pressed to find Creative Executives who would go along with anything where the audience had to do more than watch all the pretty pictures flashing by. A lot of the market is international now and there is probably some pressure to keep things simple so they literally won't get lost in translation.

I also think the compulsory vengeance of supernatural powers at the end of each film is a climax banality that is almost impossible to make interesting again.

Totally right. "Stakes escalation" is utterly deadly to any franchise. It might be required to get it started but that's the price you pay if you want to rehash material. When Raiders came out no one expected to see a sequel. Today a series of sequels is required for almost any successful film. It's an utterly different format and a better option is a long form story (TV miniseries) or an ongoing story (TV series) if you want to squeeze as much story telling and monitory value as possible out of a concept.

If they do another one I almost think they should do it as a serious story that plays with the form and perhaps challenges the cliches.

Tragically unlikely. All the things we don't like are liable to be considered what is actually valuable in the franchise. All you have to do is look at the direction the Raiders sequels took. What would be great is a melding between the best values of Raiders and Young Indiana Jones ... and that might happen, providing anyone can say Young Indiana Jones in a meeting and survive. My experience always was that if you said just one thing that several others (or the highest ranking person in the room) didn't agree with and one of those people spoke out about it you were instantly discredited and would never be listened to again. Well, unless you struck back hard and with a lot of evidence immediately ... like in the next breath. Then you'd stand a 50/50 chance of success depending on your clout and how insecure the boss was.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Mike - I hear you. I was just giving my hope for the film for the purposes of our discussion. I know how production and media work from personal experience. I understand the conservative, risk averse, bean counting that defines mainstream movie production. What they will want to make is a soulless film that offers a tick box ride, showcasing a bunch of stunts and CGI and that will play well in the Asian market. Period. Oh, and Ford will probably be a liability to the franchise. No teenager gives a rats about who plays Indy the way we do. I get it.

 

[Edward]

Norse stuff would be excellent. Mollinger would be a logically attractive alternative to the Spear of Destiny, which has long been associated with this sort of thing (in fact, I'm sure there was an Indy spin-off novel or choose your own adventure or something about the SoD back in the day). There's also the whole thing about being worthy enough to be able to wield the hammer (parallels here with Excalibur).

 

[scottyrocks]

Norse stuff would be excellent. Mollinger would be a logically attractive alternative to the Spear of Destiny, which has long been associated with this sort of thing (in fact, I'm sure there was an Indy spin-off novel or choose your own adventure or something about the SoD back in the day). There's also the whole thing about being worthy enough to be able to wield the hammer (parallels here with Excalibur).

Disney could team up with Marvel and have Indy meet Thor. They could called it Ragnahat. Or something.

 

[Zombie_61]

...Again, probably too subtle and detailed but he could actually do some ARCHEOLOGY as opposed to grave robbing...

I think that would be a good way to start the movie, with Indy in the supervisory role mentoring his students as they excavate artifacts. Given Ford's/Indy's age, it would be plausible. But I also think they would have to do a very abbreviated version of what happens in the real world or modern audiences would get bored.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I agree Zombie - Indy film are no more about archaeology than Bond films are about espionage.

 

[Edward]

I think that would be a good way to start the movie, with Indy in the supervisory role mentoring his students as they excavate artifacts. Given Ford's/Indy's age, it would be plausible. But I also think they would have to do a very abbreviated version of what happens in the real world or modern audiences would get bored.

Could make for a great framing device. Camera up: it's 1967, an archaeological dig, out in the desert somewhere. Young archaeologist finds something of interest littering in the dust, carefully removes it, takes it to his supervisor, who says "The old man will definitely be interested in this....". Helicopter arrives, and we see obscured shots of an older man getting out of it - an aid tries to help him but is waved angrily away. Camera perspective shifts to pov of the old man. We see the young archaeologist sitting at a desk, examining the piece he found earlier. A familiar, be-fedora'ed shadow falls over him, and a voice says "I haven't seen anything like that since 1937. They told me back then I was mad, it was a myth, but I knew this had to be out there......"

Cut to younger Indiana Jones....

Honestly, I just can't see any way they can have Ford play Indy without it being a framing device. Which is cool by me if they get the right younger actor. If the new Han Solo film is a success, I think we might hear an announcement to this effect....

 

[PeterGunnLives]

I agree Zombie - Indy film are no more about archaeology than Bond films are about espionage.

There should be a movie that treats archaeology in the same meticulous and methodical way that John Le Carre treats the world of espionage.

 

[Zombie_61]

...Honestly, I just can't see any way they can have Ford play Indy without it being a framing device. Which is cool by me if they get the right younger actor. If the new Han Solo film is a success, I think we might hear an announcement to this effect...

I don't necessarily disagree, but when that story possibility was mentioned to Ford during interviews after "Indy V" was announced he said he has no interest in playing Indy in that capacity. I find myself "in the middle" on the issue. Since this will in all probability be the last Indiana Jones movie with Ford in the role, I'd really like to see him go out on a high note. On the other hand, even though Ford appears to be in good physical condition for his age I thought he was noticeably not quite as agile in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull as he had been in the previous movies. And if they're able to stick to their current estimate of the movie being released in 2020, Ford will be 77 years old when it hits the theaters and only a year or two younger during filming; from a real-world perspective, it doesn't sound plausible that Indy would still be "in the trenches" at that age even though Ford is up for it.

I'm going to wait until after I've seen Solo: A Star Wars Story before drawing any final conclusions, but at this point I'm not convinced Alden Ehrenreich is a worthy heir to Ford's throne. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong, but even if he does I have a difficult time believing The Suits at Disney would put him in Ford's footsteps in more than one "big franchise" role unless they really believe he's the right person for the job. And that's assuming Ehrenreich would even be interested. Time will tell.

 

[scottyrocks]

And if they're able to stick to their current estimate of the movie being released in 2020, Ford will be 77 years old when it hits the theaters and only a year or two younger during filming; from a real-world perspective, it doesn't sound plausible that Indy would still be "in the trenches" at that age even though Ford is up for it.

Indiana Jones and the Easily Broken Hip (2020).

 

[Edward]

I don't necessarily disagree, but when that story possibility was mentioned to Ford during interviews after "Indy V" was announced he said he has no interest in playing Indy in that capacity. I find myself "in the middle" on the issue. Since this will in all probability be the last Indiana Jones movie with Ford in the role, I'd really like to see him go out on a high note. On the other hand, even though Ford appears to be in good physical condition for his age I thought he was noticeably not quite as agile in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull as he had been in the previous movies. And if they're able to stick to their current estimate of the movie being released in 2020, Ford will be 77 years old when it hits the theaters and only a year or two younger during filming; from a real-world perspective, it doesn't sound plausible that Indy would still be "in the trenches" at that age even though Ford is up for it.

Yes, I think it would be very difficult to set an Indy picture after Crystal Skull, for all sorts of reasons. For one, there's Indy/Ford's age. I actually rather liked how they didn't try to play him leaping about as if he were thirty years younger in the last one - they played him as an older man, and for me that worked well. It would be weak to simply repeat it, though. Equally, that film had a real round-off ending; it would somehow feel clumsy to me to reintroduce the franchised after that. I'd rather Indy went out on that particular high note. The old "old hero coming out of retirement for one last adventure" trope is a bit tired by now. I think the only way they could do it with Ford upfront as the main lead would be if they followed the pattern of The Dying Detective, and had Indy solve it from homebase while others did the running and jumping. Even then, I suspect we'll see a flashback scene or two designed to test whether a particular actor could credibly replace Ford as Indy. As I've said before, there's no way the Mouse will have paid out that sort of money just to own four 'old' films and not make anything new.

I'm going to wait until after I've seen Solo: A Star Wars Story before drawing any final conclusions, but at this point I'm not convinced Alden Ehrenreich is a worthy heir to Ford's throne. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong, but even if he does I have a difficult time believing The Suits at Disney would put him in Ford's footsteps in more than one "big franchise" role unless they really believe he's the right person for the job. And that's assuming Ehrenreich would even be interested. Time will tell.

I've long believed that if they are planning to have a 'Young Indy' they'll see how well this Solo film goes, then if he is accepted by the fans as a substitute-Ford, we'll probably see them try to get him into it. Of course, this is all assuming that the way forward with Indy will be a continuation of what has gone before, rather than a complete reboot - in which case they'd be freer to reimagine the whole thing in their own way, rather than try to replace Ford. Think, in a manner of speaking, Christian Bale being the Nolan-Bat rather than Val Kilmer and Clooney trying (and failing) to fill Keaton's rubber Batboots. This might come down to the contract of sale. It's well known that Lucas managed to tie Disney's hands such that they cannot overlap or contradict anything that happened in his Star Wars films. Not sure if any such restrictions were placed on Indy.

 

[PeterGunnLives]

I think the guy who played the younger version of Ford's character in "Age of Adeline" should have made a whole career out of playing younger versions of Harrison Ford characters, including Han Solo and Indiana Jones.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

there's no way the Mouse will have paid out that sort of money just to own four 'old' films and not make anything new.

Anything Disney paid out for the Star Wars, Indy & Marvel franchises has more than been recuperated by the last two ' Star Wars' movies, let alone all the merchandising...........Disney could have simply bought the rights so no one else can use the Indy icon or they are planning a sort of crossover with Indy appearing in a movie where we don't expect him. Whatever happens, I doubt the next appearence of I.J. will be as conventional as the fans are anticipating.

 

[Edward]

I think the guy who played the younger version of Ford's character in "Age of Adeline" should have made a whole career out of playing younger versions of Harrison Ford characters, including Han Solo and Indiana Jones.

I've not seen that, but I believe I know who you mean. As memory serves, he campaigned to play young Han Solo, but the Disney people wouldn't bite. Based on the youtube I saw, the likeness was uncanny, though whether he can act as well as he can impersonate is another matter.

It's such a shame Karl Urban doesn't look more like Ford; what he managed in the Star Trek films in terms of resurrecting Deforrest Kelly was little short of necromancy.

 

[Zombie_61]

Indiana Jones and the Easily Broken Hip (2020).

 

[Acererak]

Oh lord, WHY?!

CP is a fantastic actor, and I think he’d crush it. Though he may not be interested in playing another iconic b-movie (and I mean that lovingly) hero, because he’s doing more serious roles now.


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