if a non white person tried to order a meal back in 1850 would they serve him?

[DesertDan]

When Americans start calling; Afro- Americans, Native-Americans, Asian-Americans & every other prefixed Americans just plain, Americans, they would have taken a big step forward.

It is the Afro-Americans, Native-Americans, Asian-Americans et.al that insist upon their hyphenated identity. It is those who insist upon self-identifying with this hyphenated identity who must "take a big step forward".

As Theodore Roosevelt famously stated in 1915:
There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts ‘native’ before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance. But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as anyone else.

The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic. The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart allegiance, the better it will be for every good American. There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else.

And that is as far down the political discussion trail that I care to go.
Cheers!

 

[Zombie_61]

...Xenophobia is America's Original Sin, and a lot of it goes back to the very first colonists. The Puritans were not nice people, and they certainly weren't Christians, since Christ preached exactly the opposite of xenophobia.

And if Christ could communicate directly with us today, I'm sure he'd have something to say about the way his image has been "whitewashed" over the centuries.

 

[LizzieMaine]

One of the most common features of urban neighborhood life in the Era was the idea of the hyphenated-ethnic social club. In any city, especially in the immigrant-heavy cities of the Northeast, you'd find the local Polish-American Club, the local Hungarian-American Club, the local Lithuanian-American Club, the local chapter of the Sons of italy, the local outpost of the Ancient Order of Hibernians, and whatever other local European colony wanted to band together for fermented fellowship. These weren't always nice groups -- they could get extremely defensive about their territory, as any resident of South Boston well knows, but since they were mostly made up of pudgy middle-aged men, they couldn't really do much but sit and grouse about rival ethnic groups poaching their turf. They'd also write angry letters to radio comedians complaining about being stereotyped -- the Hibernians were especially touchy, and radio comics featured Irish stooges at their peril.

Of course, there was also the German-American Bund, but that was more of an anti-social club.

 

[LizzieMaine]

And if Christ could communicate directly with us today, I'm sure he'd have something to say about the way his image has been "whitewashed" over the centuries.

Wait, he didn't really look like Jeffrey Hunter?

(Actually I just sold this guy a box of Goobers and a ticket to see "Juliet Naked.")

 

[Benny Holiday]

Probably more like this:

Forensic reconstruction based on three 1st Century-AD Jewish skulls. First century Jewish culture promoted short hair for men, in contrast to the Western-biased image of a light-skinned Jesus with flowing sandy-brown locks. His hair would more likely be curly or wavy, as well.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Actually, that guy above is a dead ringer for my brother. Maybe that middle-eastern strain goes deeper than I thought.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Prehaps a little more than the 1-3 % Neanderthal genes the rest of us share.
We are all descended from Africans but fortunately we have the Bible to convince us otherwise. Phew !!!

This scientific paper describes the genetic evidence in favour of a Biblical model much better than I ever could. It's heavy reading though!

https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j30_2/j30_2_102-111.pdf

 

[sheeplady]

My grandmother spent a good portion of her life trying to appear middle class and "American," not working class and the child of immigrants.

She was terrified somebody would spot her or her kids. My mother and aunt were physically punished for speaking Polish. I once asked what a Polish word meant (my grandmother and grandfather spoke what was roughly a Polish-English creole at home to each other) and she slapped me and told me: "you're not Polish, you're American."

As a side note, let anyone think that ethnic discrimination no longer exists, my college roommate (who thought I was of English ancestry) would go on rants about the stupid dirty brute Slavs. That is putting the sorts of things she said mildly. (That was a rather fun moment when I told her I was of significant Polish descent.) I also shared my experience with extended in-law family on the FL and their refusal to eat Polish food or call it by its proper names (and correcting my children in naming things).

Granted, given the fact that most people guess I am German, Irish, or Dutch ancestry by my looks, I haven't experienced this sort of thing directed at me very often.

Needless to say, I'll never criticize anyone for hypenating their identity. My grandmother didn't do what she did out of love- she did it out of fear. I have no desire to make anyone feel like her or her children.

 

[vitanola]

One of the most common features of urban neighborhood life in the Era was the idea of the hyphenated-ethnic social club. In any city, especially in the immigrant-heavy cities of the Northeast, you'd find the local Polish-American Club, the local Hungarian-American Club, the local Lithuanian-American Club, the local chapter of the Sons of italy, the local outpost of the Ancient Order of Hibernians, and whatever other local European colony wanted to band together for fermented fellowship. These weren't always nice groups -- they could get extremely defensive about their territory, as any resident of South Boston well knows, but since they were mostly made up of pudgy middle-aged men, they couldn't really do much but sit and grouse about rival ethnic groups poaching their turf. They'd also write angry letters to radio comedians complaining about being stereotyped -- the Hibernians were especially touchy, and radio comics featured Irish stooges at their peril.

Of course, there was also the German-American Bund, but that was more of an anti-social club.

Then there is the American Sokol, a Czech gymnastic group which even ninety years after the end of mass Czech immigration has fifteen thousand odd members. Heck, the USPS even gave the group a stamp!

Then we have the Trans-Dniester and Lemko societies, United Polish War Veterans and the Polish Veterans Alliance, all of the Slovenian National Homes, the Workman's Circle, the many JCC associations, the Aldos club, the Home Family Clubs, Val-Taro, Northern Italian Club, Sardinian Association...

 

[Lean'n'mean]

It is the Afro-Americans, Native-Americans, Asian-Americans et.al that insist upon their hyphenated identity. It is those who insist upon self-identifying with this hyphenated identity who must "take a big step forward".

Individuals who wish to claim their ethnic or cultural identity be hyphenating their Americanism is quite different from white America categorizing groups of non-white Americans by their visible ethnic origins. When I hear white Americans refer to Afro-Americans or Asian-Americans etc.I am hearing an underlying form of racism or at the very least, discrimination........" They are sub-Americans or only Part American & not real Americans like us"
Now populism has raised it's ugly head & the embers of fear & hate that fuel it have been fanned upon, National & cultural identity have become obsessional for some & anyone who doesn't comply to the percieved ideal of a 'real American' i.e. those issued of non-white immigration, are not considered as true Americans & what better way of dividing & separating, than hyphenating.
I've no idea what it is like to be an Afro-American in today's America but I'm guessing it ain't as rosey as being an unhyphenated American.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Up here, Franco-Americans were widely persecuted. There is a large population of people here for whom French was their first language, and during much of the 20th Century there was a specific effort to forcibly "assimilate" them -- children were punished in schools for speaking French -- and a great deal of social pressure was brought to bear against them in other ways, mirroring in many respects the persecution of the Penoboscot and Passamaquoddy Indian tribes. The KKK had a strong presence in this state in the 1920s -- the local Klavern was over in the next block from where I live now, and locals still call it "the Klan House" -- and focused nearly all of its local energy on the suppression of French-speaking Mainers, and that left a long legacy of discrimination. Into my own youth, it was common to hear kids with names ending in "x" or "u" or "lt" being derided as "dumb Frenchmen" and a Franco-American heritage as being something shameful.

Of course, the irony is that pretty much every "native-born Mainer" has at least a streak of French ancestry in them.

 

[scotrace]

I read an interesting story recently that predicted mass migrations in the coming centuries due to climate change, and a resulting natural selection process favoring darker skinned individuals. In other words, given time, we'll pretty much all even out.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

given time, we'll pretty much all even out.

Given human nature, some will be more even than others.

 

[LizzieMaine]

A lot of this discussion points up an interesting question: just how is "whiteness" defined in America? A lot of people today who consider themselves generically "white" would not have been considered or treated so by society a hundred years ago. And if the definition of whiteness shifts over time like that, isn't the whole concept of "whiteness" purely a socio-political construction? The implications of that question are woven very deep in the fabric of American society.

 

[GHT]

I read an interesting story recently that predicted mass migrations in the coming centuries due to climate change, and a resulting natural selection process favoring darker skinned individuals. In other words, given time, we'll pretty much all even out.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Obviously, the question posed by the OP is very general. If the “non-white” person is Black. And if that person is trying to dine in a white owned tavern or restaurant. And if that restaurant is located in the 1850s American South...then he would almost certainly be denied service. Parenthetically, I can remember Black Americans being required to purchase their food through the back door of local restaurants. They weren’t allowed to eat in the dining room with the white patrons. I can also remember Black Americans being required to sit in the balcony...only...in our local movie theater. And I remember Black and White drinking fountains. All this and I’m only 62 years old.

AF

 

[GHT]

Parenthetically, I can remember Black Americans being required to purchase their food through the back door of local restaurants. They weren’t allowed to eat in the dining room with the white patrons. I can also remember Black Americans being required to sit in the balcony...only...in our local movie theater. And I remember Black and White drinking fountains. All this and I’m only 62 years old.

62? You'e much too young to be old. But seriously, when I first heard of political correctness, like many others, I dismissed it. If your skin was of a different shade to mine, and I made jokes using vulgar expressions, so what? If your lot was to a life in a wheelchair because your brain was damaged through lack of oxygen at birth, and I made jokes about your difficulties, again using vulgar expressions, so what? And if your sexual orientation was inclined towards those of your own gender and I made jokes about it, so what? I mean, how thin skinned can you be? It's only a joke. Do I have a dark skin? Quadriplegic cerebral palsy? A sexual desire for men? No, of course not, but come on, it's only a joke.

 

[Tiki Tom]

I imagine that each of us, who is over a certain age, has half a dozen or more stories of having listened to bigots or of having witnessed injustice. Sometimes we were strong enough to stand up to it (those are the times we like to remember!) and other times we disassociated ourselves from all responsibility, shook our heads, and turned away. Hopefully we pushed back more often than was entirely comfortable. Frank Sinatra was generally a world-class jerk. But I have to give him credit in so far as he always had Sammy Davis jr’s back. That impressed me from an early age.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Sammy Davis Jr. figured in another incident of so-called "racial outrage" in 1950 when he appeared on a guest on the "Colgate Comedy Hour", a television variety show hosted by Eddie Cantor. Davis performed a high-energy dance routine, to an enthusiastic response from the studio audience. It was hard work performing under television lights of that period, and he was visibly sweating as he took his bows. Cantor, a show-biz veteran to his core, took out his own handkerchief and mopped Davis's brow as he congratulated the performer for his routine.

Telegrams flooded into NBC, excoriating Cantor for "wiping that n------'s sweat" on live TV, and threatened to boycott Colgate if they ever dared feature another black performer. Cantor, whatever his shortcomings as a joke-hog, was a man who was militantly opposed to such thinking, and his response was to invite Davis back the next week, where he again wiped his fellow performer's brow, complete with a pointed "f. you" look into the camera.

And then there's Fred Allen, who invited heavyweight champion Joe Louis to appear as a guest on his program in 1940. Louis addressed Allen by his first name thruout their interview -- and predictably, Allen and his sponsor received a flood of letters from outraged racists complaining about the breach of "etiquette." "HOW DARE YOU ALLOW A NEGRO TO CALL YOU FRED ON YOUR PROGRAM" was one of the milder telegrams. Allen, usually a man of highly pointed words, was so disgusted by these messages that he refused to dignify them with any response whatever. Say what you will about show business, but it tended to attract a class of people who were, for their era, very much opposed to the cheap racism of the times. (Frank Fay and Walter C. Kelly excepted.)

 

[Zombie_61]

I read an interesting story recently that predicted mass migrations in the coming centuries due to climate change, and a resulting natural selection process favoring darker skinned individuals. In other words, given time, we'll pretty much all even out.

Over the years I've heard or read comments from a number of people, mostly stand-up comedians, who expressed the opinion that the only way to truly end racism would be for all of the various races all over the world to "interbreed" until every person on Earth had the same skin color. Of course, this was usually followed up by something to the effect that human nature, being what it is, would cause us to find some other reason to be discriminatory towards one another.

62? You'e much too young to be old. But seriously, when I first heard of political correctness, like many others, I dismissed it. If your skin was of a different shade to mine, and I made jokes using vulgar expressions, so what? If your lot was to a life in a wheelchair because your brain was damaged through lack of oxygen at birth, and I made jokes about your difficulties, again using vulgar expressions, so what? And if your sexual orientation was inclined towards those of your own gender and I made jokes about it, so what? I mean, how thin skinned can you be? It's only a joke. Do I have a dark skin? Quadriplegic cerebral palsy? A sexual desire for men? No, of course not, but come on, it's only a joke.

I've known people who would probably respond to this by saying it's easy for you to hold this "It's only a joke" opinion because you're a healthy white heterosexual male and have likely not had to endure the sheer volume of these types of jokes throughout your life. I consider myself fortunate that the majority of people I've known have had a good sense of humor and could "give as good as they get" in this regard, but on occasion some of them have confided to me that it becomes tiresome when you're the butt of these jokes on a regular basis and that they'd rather not have to deal with it.

On the other hand, I've worked with two or three people over the years who had no discernible sense of humor--I never heard them laugh, and rarely saw them smile. One of them would, on occasion, ask me to explain a joke or humorous comment to him and, despite my best efforts, he walked away each time still not understanding why anyone would think it was funny. I found it difficult to relate to these people because I enjoy humor, and interacting with them was like using a calculator--you might get the result(s) you're looking for, but beyond that it wasn't a particularly joyful experience. Based on my experience I'd guess people like this are part of a very small minority, but their existence could explain part of the "You shouldn't joke about things like that" mindset.