ID'ing horsehide, other leathers

[Grit]

Hello, Loungers!

This one's for all you A-2 aficionados: Short of genetic testing, does anyone have a good way of divining what leather a jacket is made from? Many vintage A-2s don't have materials tags on them, so how can you tell what sort of hide it is?

Goatskin's pretty easy to tell from steerhide, since it's a lot more supple. But how do you differentiate between goat and lamb? And while stiffness might be an indicator, doesn't the leather's thickness and how it's tanned have something to do with it, too? (Plus I think leather stiffens with age, which throws another curveball into the fray.)

My big question is, how can I tell whether a vintage A-2 is horsehide or steerhide, especially when the manufacturer was known to use both?

I figure if anyone knows, it'll be a lounger.
Thanks for shedding your collective light on this head-scratcher.

 

[scotrace]

A long-time leather tanner with about 150 years of handling, smelling and knowing hides may be able to tell you. But through the many threads I've seen about this, the consensus is that there is no way to tell, short of lab testing.

The tanning and finishing process can cause ten hides of the same species to look like they came from ten different species.

But the debate goes on. Greyhound? Any thoughts?

 

[aswatland]

Hello, Loungers!

This one's for all you A-2 aficionados: Short of genetic testing, does anyone have a good way of divining what leather a jacket is made from? Many vintage A-2s don't have materials tags on them, so how can you tell what sort of hide it is?

Goatskin's pretty easy to tell from steerhide, since it's a lot more supple. But how do you differentiate between goat and lamb? And while stiffness might be an indicator, doesn't the leather's thickness and how it's tanned have something to do with it, too? (Plus I think leather stiffens with age, which throws another curveball into the fray.)

My big question is, how can I tell whether a vintage A-2 is horsehide or steerhide, especially when the manufacturer was known to use both?

I figure if anyone knows, it'll be a lounger.
Thanks for shedding your collective light on this head-scratcher.

This question has come up in earlier threads. There is no way to distinguish between horse and steer hide without scientific testing. Goat is easy to spot.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Goat and cow

...unless cow has been processed to look like goat. This is the situation with some G-1s from the late 60s - early 70s. The hide is claimed to be cow pressed to look like goat, as was specified on earlier contracts, but which was more scarce. I used to have one that I was never sure about myelf. Coincidentally, I had the zip replaced by a famous flying jacket manufacturer at one end of the UK and several years later the cuffs and waistband replaced by an equally famous firm at the other. I asked them both for an opinion of what it was made. One said goat, definitely and the other said, you've guessed it, cow, definitely. Go figure.

Alan

 

[Grit]

Thanks, all!

And my apologies if I've resurrected a rotten bone of contention. I tried a search for similar topics, but entering "horsehide," "steerhide" and "leather" into the search box unearthed the phone book.

I kinda figured there wasn't a surefire way to tell, but...you don't know unless you ask.

 

[scotrace]

No problem at all! This was exactly the way to go about it.

 

[Fletch]

Steer v. cow

Steer's thicker and stiffer, I take it.

 

[greyhound68]

Steer's thicker and stiffer, I take it.

Cowhide or steer hide or any other hide thickness is dependent upon how thick the original hide is. I have seen very thin cowhide (1.5 to 2 oz) and some very thick goatskin (3.5 oz). The weight is dependent upon the thickness of the leather. Each oz is based on 0.4mm of thickness. Therefore, 3 oz leather is 1.2 mm thickness. Got this gem from the Gibson and Barnes catalog.

 

[Fletch]

OK, that takes care of thickness. But can cow easily be told from steer if they're tanned and treated the same?

 

[scotrace]

Not at all. Such assumptions just don't wash. You can tan horsehide to be thin as paper, or steer to be thick and gnarled.

Goat can be somewhat reliably identified, as can bison. Beyond that...

(well, within the hoofed species. Disregarding lizard, ostrich, et al)

 

[Fletch]

So authoritative net.maven pronouncements that horsehide can't be told from steerhide without laboratory assays are true as far as they go, they just don't go far enough?

 

[scotrace]

I wash my hands of you.

 

[Fletch]

'Sawright. I have this way of always entering a new field of interest by getting crushed between clashing factions of diehards.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Thickness

OK, that takes care of thickness. But can cow easily be told from steer if they're tanned and treated the same?

I'm beginning to sense this thread is going on too long, but...the thickness of the original hide is only one factor in determining how thick the finished leather will be. The others are done by the currier (leather preparer) and are:

Splitting - passing the cleaned hide through rollers over a parting blade. This parts the grain side from the flesh side, and if done once produces two equally-sized pieces of hide ('splits'), one of better quality than the other. Paradoxically, the thicker the original hide, the thinner it can be split, so a thick hide can often be split into three splits ('grain' or 'top' , 'flesh' and er...'middle').

Shaving - if the flesh side is uneven or lumpy (a characteristic of 'jerky' hide) the hide may be passed over a shaving blade to even up the thickness. This will tend to reduce the overall thickness of the piece.

Pressing - the middle and flesh splits are fibrous ('spongy') and will degrade more quickly than the grain split. Its density can be increased by pressing it under a big (often very big) roller. This also makes it thinner. A grain pattern or polymer finish can be put on at this time. This is where most cheap suede, patent and grain-corrected leather comes from. Cow can be made to look like crocodile. Cow like horse? Don't make me laugh...

The economies of this process are easy to see. You can get three pieces from one hide. One is good, two can be made to look OK in the short term by pressure. In the longer term the pressing 'wears off', the leather expands and will begin to lose its finish, then become 'sueded' and eventually wear through.

I have said too much...

Alan

 

[Feraud]

I am learning a lot from this thread and hope it continues!

 

[Bebop]

So, does all this mean that you can spend close to $1000 on a horsehide jacket only to end up wondering if it is horsehide or cowhide? A lot of jackets do not state on the label if they are horsehide. I guess we just take the word of the seller? Sounds like a silly way of spending $ on something you can't be sure about unless you take your A-2 to a lab to get confirmation.[huh] If that is the case, I am seriously thinking of dropping one of my hobbies.

 

[scotrace]

No reputable seller, ie Eastman, Aero, RMNZ, Gibson & Barnes, US Authentic, US Wings, etc, would risk their reputation selling something that was not as represented.

If you buy an old jacket from an eBay seller who claims horsehide without documentation, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

[Bebop]

As far as the reputable sellers like Eastman and the like, I wonder if they have ever been put to the test? I blindly trust 'reputable sellers' because they have a lot to loose for misrepresentation but I still do wonder. I feel the same with beaver hats fftopic:

 

[greyhound68]

I think you cannot tell the difference between cow and horse. I have both and side by side you really can't tell. I know companies, like Aero for example, would never put their rep on the line to sneak in cow in place of horse. IMO of course.

 

[Peacoat]

Maybe I am missing the big picture here, but if horse can't be distinguished from cow, and the cow may be thicker than the horse, why the interest in spending more $$ to get the horse? Is it because the original A-2s were primarily made of horse?

I always thought the HH was smoother grained with a nicer finish, sort of like the finish I remember seeing on police motorcycle jackets. Maybe that is just the result from the method used in tanning the leather?

I have enjoyed this thread, but I'm not sure I understand everything I once thought I understood.