Feraud
Bartender
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You broken bottle, pepper spray, weapon carrying guys ought to move to NYC where it's safe to walk the streets..
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Ideological and Historical Roots of anti-Suit Hatred
- Thread starter Dr Doran
- Start date
MrBern
I'll Lock Up
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so gay....
Theres actually a PublicServiceAnnouncement campaign against that sort of hatespeach amongst teens.
It might not be intended as negative or hurtful, but it is damaging language.
http://www.thinkb4youspeak.com/
Doran said:
Theres actually a PublicServiceAnnouncement campaign against that sort of hatespeach amongst teens.
It might not be intended as negative or hurtful, but it is damaging language.
http://www.thinkb4youspeak.com/
MrBern
I'll Lock Up
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Marc Chevalier said:I take it that you're one of those 'weasels'.
.
Regardless, its good advice.
Dr Doran
My Mail is Forwarded Here
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MrBern said:
fftopic: I agree that it is dumb to call teens "gay" and is probably damaging. I doubt, however, that many societies will ever stop valuing martial ability; hence, I strongly suspect that being a "sissy" (which, again, should NOT be construed as the same thing as being homosexual, although it often is improperly construed in that way) will always suffer disdain as long as conflicts exist for resources and mates between males: in other words, for the entire vastly long past history and even longer pre-history of the human species (and its predecessors) and for the entire forseeable future.
[Doubly
fftopic: Further, I dislike laws that make speech illegal and I believe that they can be abused.]
MrBern
I'll Lock Up
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Doran said:
I doubt, however, that many societies will ever stop valuing martial ability; hence, I strongly suspect that being a "sissy" (which, again, should NOT be construed as the same thing as being homosexual, although it often is improperly construed in that way) will always suffer disdain as long as conflicts exist for resources and mates between males: in other words, for the entire vastly long past history and even longer pre-history of the human species (and its predecessors) and for the entire forseeable future.
[Doubly
So how does the value of martial ability arrive at gaybashing? And how does that play into conflicts over mates?
Unless some big gay guy in a slick suit steals away your spouse & wardrobe.
Dr Doran
My Mail is Forwarded Here
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MrBern said:So how does the value of martial ability arrive at gaybashing? And how does that play into conflicts over mates?
Unless some big gay guy in a slick suit steals away your spouse & wardrobe.
Reread my post.
Martial ability has nothing to do with the ridicule of gay persons.
The ridicule of persons who cannot fight, however, is probably a permanent feature of the human species.
There is an IMPROPER correlation made in the minds of foolish persons between gays and persons who cannot fight.
IMPROPER, as my post notes.
Please do not jump down my throat to attack me for a crime that I personally despise. It is very annoying.
You need to read the posts more carefully.
Nope, stylish. Gay men tend to have a great eye for detail. You may not like some of their clothing choices, but suit to t shirt, tie to jeans, shoes to shoes, they tend to exhibit a greta sense of style in their choices. The little details that make up the whole.Tomasso said:
While I realize this thread is being overwhelmed by the topic of perceptions of sexual orientation as correlated with choice of clothing, I would like to take the opportunity to express an opinion.
With regard to the potentially negative statements made regarding members of certain professions
I have no problem with the expression of an individual's viewpoints, and while I find it sad to see ignorance, I believe I have little room to take issue with an individual being ill-informed about the world that surrounds them (we are all our own people). What I do have a problem with, is when individuals speak as if they are sufficiently informed to make judgments about things that they are, in fact, not sufficently-informed to make.
That being said, I would like to apply this to the current situation:
To the extent that statements have been made that convey, and have been intended to convey, a negative stereotype upon members of any given profession:
The only reason that someone would voice this viewpoint is because they have such a viewpoint. I believe that this viewpoint can only be held if someone is ill-informed about the world which surrounds them (specifically, with respect to the role of that profession in the world). Expression of distaste for a given group (in this case a profession) supported by little else than ignorance is, almost by definition, "hate-speech."
To conclude:
I am a member of this forum and I identify with this community.
By expressing viewpoints that belie ignorance and hate - it hurts me because it damages my perception of this community and, by extension (because of my identification with this forum) myself. (Note: it also hurts my reputation as I've referred people to this forum on many an occasion).
I do not appreciate it.
Thank you,
Rhabryn
With regard to the potentially negative statements made regarding members of certain professions
I have no problem with the expression of an individual's viewpoints, and while I find it sad to see ignorance, I believe I have little room to take issue with an individual being ill-informed about the world that surrounds them (we are all our own people). What I do have a problem with, is when individuals speak as if they are sufficiently informed to make judgments about things that they are, in fact, not sufficently-informed to make.
That being said, I would like to apply this to the current situation:
To the extent that statements have been made that convey, and have been intended to convey, a negative stereotype upon members of any given profession:
The only reason that someone would voice this viewpoint is because they have such a viewpoint. I believe that this viewpoint can only be held if someone is ill-informed about the world which surrounds them (specifically, with respect to the role of that profession in the world). Expression of distaste for a given group (in this case a profession) supported by little else than ignorance is, almost by definition, "hate-speech."
To conclude:
I am a member of this forum and I identify with this community.
By expressing viewpoints that belie ignorance and hate - it hurts me because it damages my perception of this community and, by extension (because of my identification with this forum) myself. (Note: it also hurts my reputation as I've referred people to this forum on many an occasion).
I do not appreciate it.
Thank you,
Rhabryn
Creeping Past
One Too Many
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I should like to try and put an end to this 'gay' sub-discussion first because it's becoming a site of casually offensive language. Secondly, it's becoming speculative, meandering and a-historical and anti-analytical (given the specifically historical language of the original post). Thirdly, it's veering way off-topic as far as I'm concerned.
Since an image relating to the ancient Greek state of Sparta has been used, it's highly pertinent to remember that Greek hoplites (trained warriors) were encouraged to engage in homosexual behaviour with their comrades in arms, at least one of the ideas behind that being that they'd fight all the harder to protect themselves and those they cared for.
Also, they fought naked.
Having offered this slight diversion, and with the proviso that I'm pro-expression of self in most ways, I have to say I find it worrying that people use the term 'hatespeech' un-ironically. Do we really want to put the kybosh on freedom of speech? Doing so selectively is an invitation to do so all round. I'm all for people reflecting on how they express their view of the world, rather than cheer on legislation that prevents certain forms of language as 'bad. That's the start of a dark path. Brrrr.
Since an image relating to the ancient Greek state of Sparta has been used, it's highly pertinent to remember that Greek hoplites (trained warriors) were encouraged to engage in homosexual behaviour with their comrades in arms, at least one of the ideas behind that being that they'd fight all the harder to protect themselves and those they cared for.
Also, they fought naked.
Having offered this slight diversion, and with the proviso that I'm pro-expression of self in most ways, I have to say I find it worrying that people use the term 'hatespeech' un-ironically. Do we really want to put the kybosh on freedom of speech? Doing so selectively is an invitation to do so all round. I'm all for people reflecting on how they express their view of the world, rather than cheer on legislation that prevents certain forms of language as 'bad. That's the start of a dark path. Brrrr.
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The topic was suits and why they have fallen from favor. Let's stay off the bizarre debate about gay stereotypes.
Lou
One of the Regulars
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I think two things are the primary cause of US anti-suit sentiment.
1. The McDonalds commercials capture one aspect. Mainstream US culture these days values "keeping it real" and "letting your hair down." Many people believe that it's natural to be this way and that people who run counter to it are posing. We see the same attitudes toward people who, for example, eat health food, enjoy opera or other classical arts, or use native pronunciation for foreign words. Things aren't supposed to get too heady.
2. American stereotypes about the corporate world cause people to equate suits with the Office Space experience. Bill Lumbergh looks comfortable in his suit (gecko shirt, cuff links, etc), whereas the three good guys are sloppily dressed to the minimum and look like their suits are viscerally oppressive.
I recently started wearing suits to work more often. Aside from simply wanting to dress well, the downturn in the economy and the frequent interaction I've been having with high-level professionals make it the obvious choice. I realize, though, that some coworkers might wonder what I'm up to. I'll just do my best to make it clear that I'm still one of the good guys.
1. The McDonalds commercials capture one aspect. Mainstream US culture these days values "keeping it real" and "letting your hair down." Many people believe that it's natural to be this way and that people who run counter to it are posing. We see the same attitudes toward people who, for example, eat health food, enjoy opera or other classical arts, or use native pronunciation for foreign words. Things aren't supposed to get too heady.
2. American stereotypes about the corporate world cause people to equate suits with the Office Space experience. Bill Lumbergh looks comfortable in his suit (gecko shirt, cuff links, etc), whereas the three good guys are sloppily dressed to the minimum and look like their suits are viscerally oppressive.
I recently started wearing suits to work more often. Aside from simply wanting to dress well, the downturn in the economy and the frequent interaction I've been having with high-level professionals make it the obvious choice. I realize, though, that some coworkers might wonder what I'm up to. I'll just do my best to make it clear that I'm still one of the good guys.
Hi Doran!
I'll say first of all to everybody on this thread;
to take full advantage of the reason(s) that
most men aren't wearing suits, and buy all you can
before the trend swings back around!
That goes for overcoats, shoes and the like.
I've never experienced the suit = Homosexual thing.
The suit = putting on airs thing, almost everytime I wear
a suit and hat outside of Church.
I can't remember the last time I saw an acknowledged gay man,
say under forty years of age in a suit.
It's been pointed out that gay men are generally regarded as
fashion savy, and because suits are, for the moment, not
en vogue, I don't see the gay men I know here in Frisco
ever wearing them[huh] San Francisco is trendy, always has been.
They like stuff that's sold in the Haight, and Union street stores.
Remember; I'm only referring to the gay young men that I happen to know.
And I would'nt be caught dead in that stuff, even if I was gay!
But isn't it great that everybody does'nt dress alike,
no matter their persuasion.
AND MY BUDDY MAX F. IS NOT A WEASEL!
And if Pif Pundy, Pap Dilly, Poot Dandy or whichever of his multiple alias
he's using today, has anything at all to do with reviving the
suit...well that would just about sum things up wouldn't it?
I'll start wearing Amish wear.
Have a great Superbowl Sunday!
Fats
I'll say first of all to everybody on this thread;
to take full advantage of the reason(s) that
most men aren't wearing suits, and buy all you can
before the trend swings back around!
That goes for overcoats, shoes and the like.
I've never experienced the suit = Homosexual thing.
The suit = putting on airs thing, almost everytime I wear
a suit and hat outside of Church.
I can't remember the last time I saw an acknowledged gay man,
say under forty years of age in a suit.
It's been pointed out that gay men are generally regarded as
fashion savy, and because suits are, for the moment, not
en vogue, I don't see the gay men I know here in Frisco
ever wearing them[huh] San Francisco is trendy, always has been.
They like stuff that's sold in the Haight, and Union street stores.
Remember; I'm only referring to the gay young men that I happen to know.
And I would'nt be caught dead in that stuff, even if I was gay!
But isn't it great that everybody does'nt dress alike,
no matter their persuasion.
AND MY BUDDY MAX F. IS NOT A WEASEL!
And if Pif Pundy, Pap Dilly, Poot Dandy or whichever of his multiple alias
he's using today, has anything at all to do with reviving the
suit...well that would just about sum things up wouldn't it?
I'll start wearing Amish wear.
Have a great Superbowl Sunday!
Fats
suitedcboy
One Too Many
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I LOVE THIS THREAD!!!!
I lead a very diverse life, I raise and train horses, run a small herd of cattle, and I'm a corporate trainer.
I wear jeans, boots, hat and sludge through manure and mud. I wear casual wear with some training sessions and for others it's a suit.
The persons I deal with in my profession probably can't imagine me stuffing a prolapsed uterus back into a birthing momma cow or shoeing one of my horses. Some of my country neighbors who have run into me dressed for one of my more formal presentations express total disbelief that I could ever put on a suit.
I think an ummentioned idea here is that a man in a suit is limited. He may be a great lawyer, politician, banker, etc but if he wears a suit he can't do NORMAL THINGS.
I lead a very diverse life, I raise and train horses, run a small herd of cattle, and I'm a corporate trainer.
I wear jeans, boots, hat and sludge through manure and mud. I wear casual wear with some training sessions and for others it's a suit.
The persons I deal with in my profession probably can't imagine me stuffing a prolapsed uterus back into a birthing momma cow or shoeing one of my horses. Some of my country neighbors who have run into me dressed for one of my more formal presentations express total disbelief that I could ever put on a suit.
I think an ummentioned idea here is that a man in a suit is limited. He may be a great lawyer, politician, banker, etc but if he wears a suit he can't do NORMAL THINGS.
3PieceSuitGuy
One of the Regulars
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- Sydney, NSW, Australia
Very intersting debate
This has turned out to be a very interesting debate! Here's my thoughts....
There is a device called a pendulum and as we all know it swings 2 ways. When I started work in the late 80's my first jobs were in banking. The uniform was a suit & tie every day of the week regardless of the temperature. It was the uniform. If you didn't wear one people didn't trust you. Let me tell you it gets very hot in Sydney in summer and if the boss saw me walk through the door without my jacket on he would tell me to put it on. I got used to just putting it on as soon as I got off the train regardless of the heat, and just about every other guy had his on too. All day every day. Back in the eighties there were very few cool wool suits, no super 100's etc. 3 piece suits in the winter were fairly common and that is where I started wearing them. I had loved them for ages and so finally getting to wear them was fantastic. The pendulum during the 80's to the 90's was way over to the suit side. A suit made people feel they could trust you.
These days in our casual relaxed society the pendulum has swung fully the other way. Now people tend to think you are not to be trusted if you wear a suit, or that you are a politician, lawyer or a doctor etc. To me personal integrity and the way you act determines what type of person you are and whether or not you should be trusted. To me my integrity is intact no matter what I wear. I can tell you though I look a lot better and feel completely comfortable in my 3 piece suit and tie! Not a 3 piece in summer though!
Also political correctness dictates that we should be more than willing to accept however people want to dress. I'm happy to accept that people have diiferent ideas on proper dress and the norm is to dress more casually. That's fine as long as those that want to dress casually don't sneer at me or label me a snob for dressing more formally. That pendulum swings both ways too!
Unfortunately that's not always the case. I went to a business conference that had a gala dinner that was black tie invited. I wore a peak lapel tux with a brocade double breasted vest, black bow with White marcella laydown collar shirt and studs & cufflinks. a colleague who was wearing a green microfibre db suit fromthe 80's teamed with a simpsons tie looked me up and down and said in front of a number of people that I was overdressed. There were so many comebacks but I simply replied that I was perfectly comfortable in what I was wearing. Two ladies who were inevening dresses told him I was the best dressed guy there. Which proves every girl is crazy bout a sharp dressed man!
Cheers
Peter
This has turned out to be a very interesting debate! Here's my thoughts....
There is a device called a pendulum and as we all know it swings 2 ways. When I started work in the late 80's my first jobs were in banking. The uniform was a suit & tie every day of the week regardless of the temperature. It was the uniform. If you didn't wear one people didn't trust you. Let me tell you it gets very hot in Sydney in summer and if the boss saw me walk through the door without my jacket on he would tell me to put it on. I got used to just putting it on as soon as I got off the train regardless of the heat, and just about every other guy had his on too. All day every day. Back in the eighties there were very few cool wool suits, no super 100's etc. 3 piece suits in the winter were fairly common and that is where I started wearing them. I had loved them for ages and so finally getting to wear them was fantastic. The pendulum during the 80's to the 90's was way over to the suit side. A suit made people feel they could trust you.
These days in our casual relaxed society the pendulum has swung fully the other way. Now people tend to think you are not to be trusted if you wear a suit, or that you are a politician, lawyer or a doctor etc. To me personal integrity and the way you act determines what type of person you are and whether or not you should be trusted. To me my integrity is intact no matter what I wear. I can tell you though I look a lot better and feel completely comfortable in my 3 piece suit and tie! Not a 3 piece in summer though!
Also political correctness dictates that we should be more than willing to accept however people want to dress. I'm happy to accept that people have diiferent ideas on proper dress and the norm is to dress more casually. That's fine as long as those that want to dress casually don't sneer at me or label me a snob for dressing more formally. That pendulum swings both ways too!
Unfortunately that's not always the case. I went to a business conference that had a gala dinner that was black tie invited. I wore a peak lapel tux with a brocade double breasted vest, black bow with White marcella laydown collar shirt and studs & cufflinks. a colleague who was wearing a green microfibre db suit fromthe 80's teamed with a simpsons tie looked me up and down and said in front of a number of people that I was overdressed. There were so many comebacks but I simply replied that I was perfectly comfortable in what I was wearing. Two ladies who were inevening dresses told him I was the best dressed guy there. Which proves every girl is crazy bout a sharp dressed man!
Cheers
Peter
Queue
Familiar Face
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- Washington, DC, Earth-616
I stumbled upon this question on yahoo answers.
The answer that struck me as kind of interesting was 'i think suits are classy. especially i really like it when guys wear a suit jacket over jeans with either a t-shirt or a polo its very attractive. full suits all the time would be kinda annoying though b/c he doesnt looks relaxed and comfortable.' Ignoring the fashion faux pas endorsed and shortcomings in spelling and grammar I think the underlying sentiment is what lays at the bottom of anti-suit feelings. Suits aren't comfortable (if they're not tailored properly) or at least they are not, typically, as comfortable as a pair of worn jeans and a tee shirt. The decline from the golden age to modernity seems marked by an increased care for one's own comfort and a decrease in the care for others' comfort.
Just my $0.02.
The answer that struck me as kind of interesting was 'i think suits are classy. especially i really like it when guys wear a suit jacket over jeans with either a t-shirt or a polo its very attractive. full suits all the time would be kinda annoying though b/c he doesnt looks relaxed and comfortable.' Ignoring the fashion faux pas endorsed and shortcomings in spelling and grammar I think the underlying sentiment is what lays at the bottom of anti-suit feelings. Suits aren't comfortable (if they're not tailored properly) or at least they are not, typically, as comfortable as a pair of worn jeans and a tee shirt. The decline from the golden age to modernity seems marked by an increased care for one's own comfort and a decrease in the care for others' comfort.
Just my $0.02.
Lone_Ranger
Practically Family
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- 500
- Location
- Central, PA
Originally Posted by reetpleat
But I would suggest that a suit is completely arbitrary. There is no inherant goodness or badness in a suit. Just the sartorial meaning placed upon it, good and bad.
To paraphrase Alan Ladd, as the gunfighter Shane. "A suit is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A suit is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that."
But I would suggest that a suit is completely arbitrary. There is no inherant goodness or badness in a suit. Just the sartorial meaning placed upon it, good and bad.
To paraphrase Alan Ladd, as the gunfighter Shane. "A suit is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A suit is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that."
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WildCelt
One of the Regulars
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Glad to hear it, Matt, and I really admire your teachers' suits. Unfortunately, as a student teacher, your suits are a little out of my price range. Perhaps they will not be so in the future once I have an paying job.Matt Deckard said:
Paddy, when I read that the first time, I saw, "Well, I've just buried your mother."PADDY said:
Same here in South Carolina. I've been told "nice suit" when wearing khakis and a blue blazer on numerous occasions.Tango Yankee said:
donCarlos
Practically Family
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Thanks for this link. I´m still laughing.Queue said:
Especially this answer:
"I find people who wear suits every day to be narcissistic liars who don't live in the real world.When talking to you they 'speak to the room' rather than to you.They are basically full of themselves and full of ****."
That guy must know me!!! However, this doesn´t apply to all suit wearers, so generally, that opinion is wrong.
