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Ideological and Historical Roots of anti-Suit Hatred

Dr Doran

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Lately I have been thinking about the roots of the negative attitude toward the suit in many parts of America, and toward dressing well in general. I am a historian by training, but not of the twentieth century (or "C20" as we call it). Still, my instinct is to look for large historical movements to explain things.

In addition, I live in Berkeley, California. Besides Santa Cruz, which is on the coast, this may be the city in which suits are held in the lowest esteem, as far as non-impoverished cities go in which the tertiary education level is high.

Here are the sources, as far as I can tell, of the malady of slob-snobbery, or the dislike of dressing decently coupled with the dislike of The Culture Formerly Known As High Culture:

1.) The Gay Issue. Many (Ostensibly) heterosexual men seem to assume that any man who makes any effort at all to make himself neat is either "sissy" or gay (or both, to the cretins who do not understand that sissies who lust for females exist, and non-sissy gays are legion and could probably kick their _ss). This disease is wider spread than one might think. My own brother, a brilliant Shakespeare scholar who got his degrees at UCLA (a very well-respected school, second only in the USA, GENERALLY speaking, to very top-tier schools like Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, Michigan, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Columbia) and who plays Scrabble fearsomely, and who is not anyone upon whom uncharitable people would use the term "redneck," starts to use the G-word as soon as he sees me pick up a collar bar. He is an intelligent fellow; so I don't think that the gayfear is restricted only to American Neanderthals. Gays seem to have distinguished themselves in, perhaps, the 1980s by fastidiousness in dress; and surely, certain habits were considered overly fastidious in 5th century BC Athens, such as plucking one's body hair (particularly the armpits), to be equated with sissiness/lack of martial, masculine identity and presumed homosexual receptivity. Very odd now, though: one would think we've moved on a bit.

2.) The Class Issue. To be subdivided into:
i) The Union. On my kitchen table is the latest issue of SOLIDARITY, the Union newsletter. I respect Unions. However, a thread running through the rhetoric of the magazine is that the "Suits" are to be distrusted. They always lie and cheat The Working Man out of his wage. Is this accurate now? Perhaps in the 1930s. I am not certain.
ii) The Plumbers. Non-union working class individuals such as plumbers need to dress in durable clothes and cannot wear suits for fear of nasty substances ruining them. Contractors, also, who could wear suits, do not, as refraining from suit-wearing distinguishes them, in a manner that they find useful, from the "Suits" with whom they have to argue. It's an identity issue.

3.) Baby Boom/Late 1960s Counterculture/Hippies. Ubiquitous in my neck of the woods, and utterly incapable of critically examining the follies of their own generation. To them, they did no wrong. And one of the things that distinguished them was the refusal to visually fit in with a society that they saw as conformist, warlike, and zombie-ish. Unfortunately, any faint point that this form of protest had in 1968 is completely otiose by 2009, but persons born in the post-WW2 "baby boom" residing in Berkeley and elsewhere still have not recovered from this style and present themselves with a lack of flair that is painful to the eye: long gray leggings on women, long gray hair, tie-dyed shirts (surely a visual depiction of a migraine), long horrid gray beards on the men, a refusal to wear any shoe that is polished. Holy jeans. For them, the sorts of persons depicted in the TV show "Mad Men" was the ENEMY, and they had to define themselves as not that. Again, it's rather silly at this point in history. To me, this is the least relevant of the lot.

4.) Non-hippie counterculture. Very similar to the hippie "aesthetic" if one can sully this noble word. The hip-hoppers don't want to look like the white business man; the "alternative" rockers want to prove their authenticity; even vintage-loving Squirrel Nut Zippers sang a song on the seed catalog album whose chorus was "The Suits Are Picking Up The Bill." Persons in "suits" are rich, nameless, and faceless.

5.) We must not forget the simple Slob Factor. Dressing well is difficult for some men. They will attempt to lamely imply that dressing well is kind of gay (see #1) but they don't believe it most of the time; still, gayness is an excuse they can use to hide their aesthetic impoverishment. They just cannot hack it. They receive no pleasure from seeing someone whose pocket square complements his tie perfectly. They raise their eyebrows at wing tips. They just don't get it. I see this as becoming very strong after about 1968.

6.) For women: The "Slut" Factor. I dislike the word "slut" and never use it. People who have lots of friends can do what they want with their friends and it should be none of my business. However, many women I have talked to have stated that they fear dressing up lest they seem overly eager to impress men, lest they seem overly eager to sleep with men. Their girlfriends will insult them for being slutty in the same manner in which a man's (lame) friends presumably will think he is acting "gay" if he cares about his appearance.

7.) The "putting on airs" problem. Thankfully, only half of my family comes from a philistinish background to whom doing almost anything constitutes "putting on airs."

You've bought a convertible? - Oh my, you're putting on airs.
Going to college? - Who do you think you are? Are you putting on airs? Decided you don't believe in invisible beings? - Who are you to say that? You're putting on airs. NEXT THING YOU'LL SAY YOU'RE GOING TO WRITE A NOVEL.

If any member of my family said this, I'd probably resort to physical violence. I can easily see them saying this about wearing a fedora. Very sad, and grotesque. I cannot express my sympathy sufficiently to those who experience this problem.

These are the pressures and forces that I see conspiring to keep sartorial excellence among men of this (American) culture as low as it has been. These are the factors that I see resulting in the sartorial atom bomb we now daily witness. I welcome your comments.
 

Sefton

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Tim, that's as fine of an outline of this issue as I've seen. I suggest that another consideration might be the association of the suit with being adult. Adult=old and old just doesn't fit into our youth obsessed culture. One more consequence of the 60s/counterculture. In trying to latch onto the youth market we have seen more and more designers and menswear sellers offering suits that ape the popular tastes of young people. Waistlines are dropped to the hips and the overall cut is tight like jeans. It may look youthful but I imagine it can't be too appealling to most men over the age of 30 so why should they risk looking foolish in one of these suits. The only options left are bespoke which is expensive and wearing vintage which comes with its own set of problems that most of us here know all too well.
 

Warbaby

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Consider also the men people most commonly associate with suits today: bankers, lawyers, politicians, business executives, insurance salesmen, IRS agents and other weasels who wear suits to maintain the illusion of power and authority. Certainly not the sort of men that engender feelings of respect, admiration and the desire to emulate their image. ;)
 

Chasseur

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Good observations, I would add a few.

(1) Its not just the Baby Boom generation, the Gen-Xers are very anti-suit, these are the ones that really hated the yuppies in the 1980s. Suit="Gecko from Wall Street" for this crowd. I work with many of these people... I find some of the 2000 generation students I have are actually interested in dressing up.

(2) There is this assumption that formality and suits=bad, and informality and casual dress= good. That if someone is wearing a blazer or tie they are doing it for a sinister reason, not just because they wanted to. That is someone takes off their jacket and loses the tie to talk it is good.

One of the funnier moments I had back in college is having a speech professor complain about how the employees at an expensive jewerly store did not spend a great deal of time with her when she went in in dirty sweat pants (what she wore all the time). That is wasn't fair of them to "judge her" by what she wore. Hmm... a teacher of communication not understanding the message she was sending to workers in an expensive jewerly store...
 

Max Flash

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Warbaby said:
Consider also the men people most commonly associate with suits today: bankers, lawyers, politicians, business executives, insurance salesmen, IRS agents and other weasels who wear suits to maintain the illusion of power and authority. Certainly not the sort of men that engender feelings of respect, admiration and the desire to emulate their image. ;)

You should be careful who you brand as a "weasel", and your reasons for doing so.
 

Creeping Past

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Doran, just a couple of thoughts.

Is your list based on the American experience? Although I recognise some of your points, not all chime with my experience in the UK.

In London, I've noticed a decline in the quality of suits, for instance, worn by office workers (to create a spurious, over-large category) more than I've noticed a decline in suit-wearing.

And the dropping off of formality in manners and dress is a lot less marked in Paris or Rome, for instance. In France, people generally dress very conservatively.

On social class, I'd say that you've missed a vital point: social mobility. These days, many young 'uppers' are happy to dress like crack dealers. Is this the result of misunderstanding previous generations' counter-cultural notions of proletarian solidarity? Or is it more a genuine case of their wanting to self-identify as their parents and grandparents did?

Also, at the apex of the 'upper' stratum, the independently wealthy don't have the same pressures to conform to a working dress code that are perhaps felt by those trying to achieve social mobility from the lower strata.

In England, certainly, on a Friday night in town, many men, called 'blue collar' workers in US, still go drinking dressed in suits, or in relatively expensive trousers/shirt combos. This has always happened. If you wear overalls all day, you may want to dress up in your time away from work. The opposite is the case for daytime suit-wearers.

Warbaby, I think your post is possibly evidence in favour of No. 4. And I totally agree, up to and excluding the term 'weasels'. :eek: People do what they've got to do.

Can perceptions of mistrust accruing around those wearing suits be dispelled by political leaders like Barack Obama doffing jackets and exposing shirtsleeve? It seemed to work for Tony Blair, but do people really regard ex-lawyers with their jackets off as more trustworthy?
 

Howard Hughes

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DOIN' THE LAMBETH WALK......OI !!!
STYLE

I think the bottom-line on this subject, is that it takes time and effort to look stylish. Most people, in England anyway, just follow the herd, and wear whatever is presented to them in the fashionable high-street shops, or whatever the latest postars tell them is correct. To go beyond this would just be too much like hard work.
Anyone who wears a suit for pleasure is seen as odd and everyone is wary of them.
Although I have often been told by complete strangers that my clothes are great and everyone should make an effort to dress well, but hardly anyone does.
It is like people who go to New Zealand on holiday, then come back and say "it's great, it's just like Britain was in the 50's", then they go back to their 21C lives of selfishness and materialism, when they arrive home.
Go figure, as they say across the pond.
Toodleoo
HH
 

PADDY

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Responses by the public to my suit/hat wearing in the USA...

Note, that most of these responses were 'before' I opened my mouth (so they didn't get any of the Irish brogue to soften the image ;) ).

Walking in Long Beach, Ca. Three girls in late teens/early 20's dressed in shell suits (the sort of thing you'd train in) and plenty of cheap metal 'bling' walking in the opposite direction. No sooner had I passed (and boy, they gave me 'the look') I heard one say, "Did you SEE THAT GUY, he was wearing a SUIT!!" (Oh horror-of-HORRORS!! My terrible fashion faux-pas...send him to St.Quentin immediately!!).

New York City: "Hey, who the hell do you think you are..? Elliott Ness???:eek: " (Actually I laughed out loud at that one, albeit at 2am in the morning).

Portland, Maine: Homeless guy, "Hey man!! where did you get that hat..it looks REALLY good" (I was wearing a suit too, but the HAT does draw the initial attention).

LAX: (LA Airport): Guy comes up to me and says, "I just had to say I love your suit, and you wear it so well..!!"

Los Angeles City: A few people came up to me and quipped, "Where did you get that suit, it looks really good!" (this is in a city where even Lawyers have been ditching the traditional suit over the years).

PS: Recently I was called into work for an interagency meeting (so with other professionals from other companies..etc). I walk into my Head Office and one of the smart ass guys in his designer jeans and tee shirt (that looks like crap, but would probably buy me ten vintage suits!) asks with a smarmy half-grin..., "You going to a funeral or something?"

To which I reply, "Well, I've just buried my mother..."

As he stood stunned with the blood draining from his face and a pregnant silence (unusual for him), ...I follow up..."No she's not dead James! but you need to be careful when you next think of firing a quip like that at anyone...especially ME."
 

H.Johnson

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I would day that England today is like the England of the 1150s. You know, class division, superstition, lack of aspiration, mass unemployment...etc, etc.
 

Miss_Bella_Hell

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No woman wearing a suit would get branded a "slut" (unless of course she were wearing seamed stockings. Then it's more likely). She might get branded a "prude" which is, ironically, just as damning.

I also think the classist associations come from a simple fact: suits cost more than jeans and tees.

I know there are exceptions, such as the idiots wearing $500 dollar jeans and $250 tee shirts, but then it's "king of the slobs" stuff.
 

Creeping Past

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H.Johnson said:
I would day that England today is like the England of the 1150s. You know, class division, superstition, lack of aspiration, mass unemployment...etc, etc.

But, perhaps even more pertinently, without the sumptuary laws.
 

Dr Doran

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Creeping Past said:
Doran, just a couple of thoughts.

Is your list based on the American experience? Although I recognise some of your points, not all chime with my experience in the UK.

Yes; I specify this in the final paragraph of my initial post on this thread.

Creeping Past said:
And the dropping off of formality in manners and dress is a lot less marked in Paris or Rome, for instance. In France, people generally dress very conservatively.

I've noticed this as well. And I like it.

Creeping Past said:
On social class, I'd say that you've missed a vital point: social mobility. These days, many young 'uppers' are happy to dress like crack dealers. Is this the result of misunderstanding previous generations' counter-cultural notions of proletarian solidarity? Or is it more a genuine case of their wanting to self-identify as their parents and grandparents did?

I'll have to roll that around a few days.

Creeping Past said:
Also, at the apex of the 'upper' stratum, the independently wealthy don't have the same pressures to conform to a working dress code that are perhaps felt by those trying to achieve social mobility from the lower strata.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Now it makes proper sense.

Creeping Past said:
In England, certainly, on a Friday night in town, many men, called 'blue collar' workers in US, still go drinking dressed in suits, or in relatively expensive trousers/shirt combos. This has always happened. If you wear overalls all day, you may want to dress up in your time away from work. The opposite is the case for daytime suit-wearers.

Good point. Yes, I did notice that in London and Bristol a bit, but in both places I was mainly hanging out at student pubs, so it wasn't immediately obvious to me. I have seen it also in British TV shows, though, like Cracker, I think. Or maybe that's a false memory.

Creeping Past said:
Can perceptions of mistrust accruing around those wearing suits be dispelled by political leaders like Barack Obama doffing jackets and exposing shirtsleeve? It seemed to work for Tony Blair, but do people really regard ex-lawyers with their jackets off as more trustworthy?

Obama can probably pull it off better than Blair. (He can probably pull off many sartorial or anti-sartorial things better than many world leaders alive today.) I still think it's sort of horrible to show the shirt-sleeves. But the general thrust of much of campaigning is to convince the "undecideds" to vote for you -- hence the mainstreamization of national candidates' images after they have won their party primaries with more radical talk; many of these undecideds are lower-middle-class whites without secondary education who may think that suit wearing is exactly the "putting on airs" sort of thing I mentioned in #7, above, and a pressure certainly exists to appeal to this demographic group.

[Nota Bene to all: Please note utter lack of political sentiment in above mention of new President: let's continue with this neutrality so that we can keep our discussion viable.]
 

PADDY

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Absolutely rivetting thread Doran!!

There's got to be a university thesis buried in all of this, it's marvellous content and some gripping, well thought out arguments being produced - which I'm sure is giving 'all of us' plenty to think about.:eusa_clap
 

Dr Doran

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PADDY said:
There's got to be a university thesis buried in all of this, it's marvellous content and some gripping, well thought out arguments being produced - which I'm sure is giving 'all of us' plenty to think about.:eusa_clap

I don't know if it would work in the university: in a doctoral thesis setting, one would be pressured by one's advisors to refrain from referring to this historical transformation in style as a "decline." One would be pressured to call it a less judgmental term such as simply a "transformation." But then it would lose its interest.

This all is only interesting if one believes that something bad has happened (I certainly do). Otherwise, it would be merely a value-neutral change in the way Americans have dressed over the past century, and one style would not be thought of as inherently better than another. (The peril of cultural relativism.) And then it would become something kind of boring and insignificant and I wouldn't really want to bother writing it.

It could work as a non-academic book, though: like that, there would be less pressure to be value-neutral about what seems quite frankly to me to be a decline into philistinism and crudeness, a death of refinement.

Have any of you read Anne Hollander's Sex and Suits? The most interesting book on the history of the suit that I have ever read.
 

Dr Doran

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Chasseur said:
One of the funnier moments I had back in college is having a speech professor complain about how the employees at an expensive jewerly store did not spend a great deal of time with her when she went in in dirty sweat pants (what she wore all the time). That is wasn't fair of them to "judge her" by what she wore. Hmm... a teacher of communication not understanding the message she was sending to workers in an expensive jewerly store...

Hilarious!
 

Dr Doran

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Warbaby said:
Consider also the men people most commonly associate with suits today: bankers, lawyers, politicians, business executives, insurance salesmen, IRS agents and other ... who wear suits to maintain the illusion of power and authority. Certainly not the sort of men that engender feelings of respect, admiration and the desire to emulate their image. ;)


This must be accurate. Funny thing is, it's the simplest solution, and I never thought of it.

This may be one reason why when I wear a suit and tie, which is most of the time, I deliberately distinguish myself from what i think of as a boring insurance salesman look: I use a carefully chosen pocket square, an interesting tie, unusual shoes, a hat, etc. But I suspect to many persons, all that detail is lost and they just see the suit and think "The Man."
 

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