Hunting Hitler on the History Channel

[MikeKardec]

The most interesting post-war 'disappearance' of an SS big shot is SS Obergruppenfuhrer (full general) DrIng. Hans Kammler, who at war's end, was in charge of the highest priority secret projects, including the V weapons. For a fun jump into a 'black hole' of mystery, pick up Nick Cook's 'The Hunt for Zero Point' which features a weird and interesting description of a Nazi project in high energy mercury compound centrifuge experiments that supposedly had some weird and fatal results. It was allegedly classified beyond anything else: "War Winning Decisive" or some such, obviously over-classified, since uh, they didn't win the war. Anyhoo, this thing was Kammler's baby and he supposedly bargained it for his freedom from prosecution. Like many of the bad guys, his end was subject to several stories, none verified. Maybe he owns the Cinnabon where 'Gene', aka Saul Goodman now works.
This centrifuge thingy was called 'Die Glocke' (the bell) because of its shape. UFO folks posit that it was the same thing that plowed up a wooded area in Kecksburg, PA back in the '60's. It just gets deeper from there. Take a flashlight and some string.

Well, okay. We've looped back around to the "Nazi Bell" conspiracy, which fascinates me as much as I believe it is BS. There are a number of lesser versions of this story, the most interesting of which being that there were a number of these devices scattered around Europe and that they were some sort of odd nuclear fuel refinement technology. One example of this story is here -- https://sites.google.com/site/nazibelluncovered/ -- I'm not suggesting that this is any more "real" than the more far out versions, however.

I forget if I've gone into this in this thread but my pet theory, at least at the moment, is that the whole thing (since the Polish documents at the root of it all remain "secret") is a case of Spontaneous Imagination. Igor Witkowski claims to have seen these mysterious Polish materials prior to his publishing his Prawda o Wunderwaffe in 2000. It would be exceedingly cool if this were true and more information eventually came out BUT I have always wondered if the origin of this story wasn't two fictional sources; novels, The Proteus Operation by James Hogan published in 1985 and Lightning by Dean Koontz published in 1988.

The two are very similar (certainly a case of Coincidental or Spontaneous Imagination on their own) and deal with the creation of a Nazi experiment that leads to the development of a time machine.

If you want to go DEEP down the fun-house rat hole of The Bell be sure to check out both Joseph Farrell and Henry Stevens, supposedly non-fiction worters. You come up for air thinking that you've learned all kinds of specific stuff but you still know nothing concrete and you'll be looking askance at the EU wondering if it isn't the end product of one of those secret Nazi (or in this case German, Farrell tends to look at German political strategies that predate the Nazis by many years) methods of hiding things.

Once you get there you can move on to "Breakaway Civilizations," groups of elite people living right under our noses who have their own rules and their own economy and only reach into "our world" (meaning the systems that we know and use and are stuck with) in order to extract resources. A theory in this case might be a Nazi/Corporate/Defense/Intelligence community system that grew from some plan at the end of WWII ... but there are fantasy versions that suggest that there are groups who, harnessing supposedly futuristic Nazi tech (like The Bell), have been colonizing the planets for the last many years. If you are one of the Elite or have special abilities you may be tapped to join this secret world and fly away to the stars! Oddly this BS sprung up as Stargate was becoming popular, furthering my "it all actually comes from fiction" theory. Certainly there is some crossover with the Stargate writers cluing into wacky culture as much as they may have been creating it.

While my tongue is planted firmly in my cheek about the above, and it's a fascinating look at people's psychology, there are a number of Breakaway Civilizations that are real. ISIS is one, legitimately crushed because it came too fully into public view. Al Queda also stayed beneath the radar until egos and the need to display fire and death became too big and they got punished. Certainly there are other groups who have not made these mistakes ... or (cue the spooky music) have powers that insure their mysteriousness. International drug cartels are another. They have their own laws, their own economy, they treat "our world" as (potentially difficult) terrain they have to navigate and extract their wealth from just as you might drive a bumpy road between oil wells. It is so often the case that the popular imagination identifies significant truths, and understands them at a profound level, without making a specific and scientific identification of the actual issue.

If you're going to drive this road, Nick Cook is actually just the beginning.

 

[filfoster]

Well, okay. We've looped back around to the "Nazi Bell" conspiracy, which fascinates me as much as I believe it is BS. There are a number of lesser versions of this story, the most interesting of which being that there were a number of these devices scattered around Europe and that they were some sort of odd nuclear fuel refinement technology. One example of this story is here -- https://sites.google.com/site/nazibelluncovered/ -- I'm not suggesting that this is any more "real" than the more far out versions, however.

I forget if I've gone into this in this thread but my pet theory, at least at the moment, is that the whole thing (since the Polish documents at the root of it all remain "secret") is a case of Spontaneous Imagination. Igor Witkowski claims to have seen these mysterious Polish materials prior to his publishing his Prawda o Wunderwaffe in 2000. It would be exceedingly cool if this were true and more information eventually came out BUT I have always wondered if the origin of this story wasn't two fictional sources; novels, The Proteus Operation by James Hogan published in 1985 and Lightning by Dean Koontz published in 1988.

The two are very similar (certainly a case of Coincidental or Spontaneous Imagination on their own) and deal with the creation of a Nazi experiment that leads to the development of a time machine.

If you want to go DEEP down the fun-house rat hole of The Bell be sure to check out both Joseph Farrell and Henry Stevens, supposedly non-fiction worters. You come up for air thinking that you've learned all kinds of specific stuff but you still know nothing concrete and you'll be looking askance at the EU wondering if it isn't the end product of one of those secret Nazi (or in this case German, Farrell tends to look at German political strategies that predate the Nazis by many years) methods of hiding things.

Once you get there you can move on to "Breakaway Civilizations," groups of elite people living right under our noses who have their own rules and their own economy and only reach into "our world" (meaning the systems that we know and use and are stuck with) in order to extract resources. A theory in this case might be a Nazi/Corporate/Defense/Intelligence community system that grew from some plan at the end of WWII ... but there are fantasy versions that suggest that there are groups who, harnessing supposedly futuristic Nazi tech (like The Bell), have been colonizing the planets for the last many years. If you are one of the Elite or have special abilities you may be tapped to join this secret world and fly away to the stars! Oddly this BS sprung up as Stargate was becoming popular, furthering my "it all actually comes from fiction" theory. Certainly there is some crossover with the Stargate writers cluing into wacky culture as much as they may have been creating it.

While my tongue is planted firmly in my cheek about the above, and it's a fascinating look at people's psychology, there are a number of Breakaway Civilizations that are real. ISIS is one, legitimately crushed because it came too fully into public view. Al Queda also stayed beneath the radar until egos and the need to display fire and death became too big and they got punished. Certainly there are other groups who have not made these mistakes ... or (cue the spooky music) have powers that insure their mysteriousness. International drug cartels are another. They have their own laws, their own economy, they treat "our world" as (potentially difficult) terrain they have to navigate and extract their wealth from just as you might drive a bumpy road between oil wells. It is so often the case that the popular imagination identifies significant truths, and understands them at a profound level, without making a specific and scientific identification of the actual issue.

If you're going to drive this road, Nick Cook is actually just the beginning.

I've read Farrell's book(s) and was saddened. He writes well, and includes what appear to be voluminous, footnoted annotations. Then, you look away from the page and realize it's all bat sh-t crazy. It's like chatting with an engaging person only to have them suddenly escorted away with an explanation that it's time for them to go back to the asylum. Farrell claims to have a Phd in something called 'Patristics' which is probably as useful as Medieval History.

 

[MikeKardec]

It's like chatting with an engaging person only to have them suddenly escorted away with an explanation that it's time for them to go back to the asylum.

You have to take it for what it's worth. There is SOMETHING there, some fire beneath the smoke, but it could be the fire of a Polish guy that made it all up, it could be a real thing that just isn't that exciting but was still covered up. It might be, I think many of these guys would probably get on board with this, that the Nazis saw the potential to build a thermonuclear device and arrogantly decided to leapfrog past a simple bomb and build the thing that would cow the whole world into believing they were actually Uber-men and maybe, maybe, allow them to only build and use ONE ... which is probably as many as they could imagine getting away with building. They were really into that sort of overwhelming theatricality even though it rarely worked ... like, you can't already be at war with someone when you try to use it. If they think they're all going to die anyway they just keep fighting!

I get the feeling that Farrell, at least, has a bit of a sense of humor and knows his audience. There is also a persistent need that humans have to maintain their sense of wonder, the idea that everything is not known, that mysteries exist in the world and that we have possibilities and potential beyond the drab crap we are told our world is made of. Science has stopped exciting us, not because it's not interesting but it's gotten hard to understand the interesting parts. Science Fiction as a genre has died. There are few frontiers except Antarctica and if you look closely you'll find Science Fiction Nazis there too. We're talking about space again but chemical rockets aren't going to take us there to any great extent. People want more. Here's a great quote from Robert Heinlein (who did a Nazis on the Moon story!):

“What did I want?
I wanted a Roc's egg. I wanted a harem loaded with lovely odalisques less than the dust beneath my chariot wheels, the rust that never stained my sword,. I wanted raw red gold in nuggets the size of your fist and feed that lousy claim jumper to the huskies! I wanted to get to feeling brisk and go out and break some lances, then pick a like wench for my droit du seigneur--I wanted to stand up to the Baron and dare him to touch my wench! I wanted to hear the purple water chuckling against the skin of the Nancy Lee in the cool of the morning watch and not another sound, nor any movement save the slow tilting of the wings of the albatross that had been pacing us the last thousand miles.
I wanted the hurtling moons of Barsoom. I wanted Storisende and Poictesme, and Holmes shaking me awake to tell me, "The game's afoot!" I wanted to float down the Mississippi on a raft and elude a mob in company with the Duke of Bilgewater and the Lost Dauphin.
I wanted Prestor John, and Excalibur held by a moon-white arm out of a silent lake. I wanted to sail with Ulysses and with Tros of Samothrace and eat the lotus in a land that seemed always afternoon. I wanted the feeling of romance and the sense of wonder I had known as a kid. I wanted the world to be what they had promised me it was going to be--instead of the tawdry, lousy, fouled-up mess it is.”

 

[Tiki Tom]

I wanted the feeling of romance and the sense of wonder I had known as a kid. ”

Exactly. And I'd go as far as to guess that many "conspiracy theory types" are not into it because they truly believe so much as because they are trying to recapture that lost sense of romance and wonder.

Case in point: Count me as another guy who very much enjoyed Nick Cook’s zero point book. I found it to have just enough juice to make a semi-reasonable person wonder if ---maybe, just maybe--- there might be something genuine going on somewhere just beyond the acceptable limits of current scientific thinking. It gives a person a bit of that “Watson, the games afoot!” thrill that is so lacking in our day-to-day world. Of course the book is ultimately a wild goose chase, but that doesn’t make it any less fun.

Right now I’m reading “The Science Delusion” by Rupert Sheldrake. He’s a lauded Cambridge biochemistry PhD who has become a controversial figure because his basic thesis is that modern scientific dogma is papering-over some major problems with the accepted “materialist” worldview. He is a scientist, so his writing isn’t exactly zippy… but right now he is setting the stage and introducing some mildly unorthodox theories. Pretty interesting. Future chapter titles suggest that some cherished crockery will eventually hit the wall. (Chapter titles: “are the laws of nature fixed?”, “are minds confined to brains?” “are psychic phenomena illusory?”) The appeal is that he is just mainstream and respectable enough to make you wonder. Is he a visionary thinker? Or a crackpot? Stay tuned.

 

[MikeKardec]

there might be something genuine going on somewhere just beyond the acceptable limits of current scientific thinking.

modern scientific dogma is papering-over some major problems with the accepted “materialist” worldview.

I'm sure that these statements are correct. I've known a lot of top scientists in my life. Few had truly open minds. Most were terrified of being embarrassed by any connection to an outlandish theory or idea. You'll hear a statement something like: "most physicists distinguish themselves early, before they are thirty or forty." No kidding! But it's not because their capacity somehow diminishes, it's because too many take on orthodoxy as they get older. It's because too many spend their time defending their old ideas rather than having new ones. The more well known they get the more they have to lose and they circle the wagons and close their minds. The education itself tells you over and over the (supposed) limits of what is possible.

One of the things that struck me while reading A Short History of Nearly Everything but Bill Bryson was that the discoverers of a great deal of the fundamental aspects of science were lay people, gifted amateurs; people who hadn't been educated into accepting limitations or fearing discredit.

Without going very far into a subject that becomes an aspect of politics if you look too deeply -- the concept of discredit; having permanently discrediting opinions or taking permanently discrediting actions seems (in my limited experience) to have grown up in academia in the 1980s. The "discredit effect" allows a person who doesn't like your theory (or statement, or thought) to utterly ignore and cause others to ignore an idea if any aspect of the person who advance it can be tainted with some (often topic) aspect of ill repute. Basically, you can be both smart and convincing but if you get connected with the wrong thing, idea, or person, you are toast. Your name is mud. You no longer matter. Nothing you say or do can change things. Needless to say this idea has propagated outward into a good deal of mainstream culture and led to the sort of name calling you see everywhere now. The name calling isn't so much to create prejudice in others, it is the Scarlett Letter... designed to notify people like the accuser that you are a non-person and thus must be avoided. Scientists are terrified of this because they invented it.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Basically, you can be both smart and convincing but if you get connected with the wrong thing, idea, or person, you are toast. Your name is mud. You no longer matter. Nothing you say or do can change things. .... it is the Scarlett Letter... designed to notify people like the accuser that you are a non-person and thus must be avoided. Scientists are terrified of this because they invented it.

This has certainly happened to Sheldrake. The scientific community succeeeded in getting his TED Talk removed. The uproar and backlash then made him a best-seller. Not exactly what the scientific community wanted.

Getting back to Nick Cook, "the Bell", etc.: Has anyone heard about this one? Worth ordering?

https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Antigravity-Propulsion-Classified-Technology-ebook/dp/B003N3U3GW

 

[filfoster]

I'll let you know. I ordered it. Looks like a fun read.

 

[filfoster]

Got the book "Secrets of Anti-Gravity Propulsion". Oh. The title was so promising. I skimmed it for the fun bits and it was jargon dense to an uncomfortable degree. If you're an MIT grad and want a bedside read, grab it. It's the kind of book Sheldon and Leonard would giggle over. I doubt I'll ever read it unless I'm bedridden without a TV and can't reach anything else. At least Dr. Farrell's fantasies are engaging to read.
From my brief and painful survey, none of the subjects contained overlaps Bob Lazar's 'reports' of the alien technology he claims to have examined at area S2, if you believe that sort of thing. (I want to, but Mr. Lazar's bona fides are sketchy to say the least.)
Anyway, if you buy this, you now know what to expect.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Thank you, Fil, for taking the bullet for us. This business of investigating rumors of the incredible and evidence of the ground-breaking is sometimes thankless. Nonetheless, I thank you.

I keep hearing rumors that gravitics research is on-going, but beyond that, it’s a very slippery topic.

 

[rocketeer]

As with other TV programs where they all go off on an adventure to find Pablo Escobar's Millions, digging up Hitlers Gold, or any of those other searches for lost riches, this will come to the same conclusion that after all this time no one knows better than the evidence or lack of it, and end up with the same answer as that they are trying to disprove.
Personally I like the rumours about the Fuhrer escaping to, and living in Antartica. Or he was captured alive and kept naked in a cage in Stalin's office(An internet researcher's theory haha) But why not? No one can disprove it.

 

[Tiki Tom]

The History Channel does it again!

https://www.livescience.com/63788-nycc-aliens-project-blue-book.html

From what I know about it, "Project Blue Book" has a pretty bland reputation. Wasn't it a program to make the UFO stories go away by dismissing them all as swamp gas or the planet Venus?

 

[MissMittens]

The History Channel does it again!

https://www.livescience.com/63788-nycc-aliens-project-blue-book.html

From what I know about it, "Project Blue Book" has a pretty bland reputation. Wasn't it a program to make the UFO stories go away by dismissing them all as swamp gas or the planet Venus?

Blue Book was a USAF project to catalog mysterious appearances in the sky. Most were likely either government experiments such as the SR-71 Blackbird and other then-classified aircraft, some were weather related, and a handful were "unexplained."

It's important to note that unexplained doesn't mean "alien," it just means that there were no US testing or weather conditions to account for the appearances. Most of the "unexplained" phenomenon are considered to be of likely USSR origin, made up or reported by the mentally ill.

So yeah, some were no doubt alien as in not American, but not alien as in from another planet or solar system, lol.

 

[MissMittens]

Got the book "Secrets of Anti-Gravity Propulsion". Oh. The title was so promising. I skimmed it for the fun bits and it was jargon dense to an uncomfortable degree. If you're an MIT grad and want a bedside read, grab it. It's the kind of book Sheldon and Leonard would giggle over. I doubt I'll ever read it unless I'm bedridden without a TV and can't reach anything else. At least Dr. Farrell's fantasies are engaging to read.
From my brief and painful survey, none of the subjects contained overlaps Bob Lazar's 'reports' of the alien technology he claims to have examined at area S2, if you believe that sort of thing. (I want to, but Mr. Lazar's bona fides are sketchy to say the least.)
Anyway, if you buy this, you now know what to expect.

Having read this, you're absolutely right, it's packed with jargon to the hilt. No doubt to obfuscate the fact that it contains nothing but the fantasy of a man who only has a bachelors (BA) in physics, his PhD coming in "system's science" which is basically a "general science meets the humanites" vanity degree from Portland State.....Paul LaViolette is nothing but a flim flam man who uses the initials PhD to peddle pesudo-scientific junk that has no basis in actual physics. But his BA gives him some terminology to sprinkle over his work and con the uneducated masses.

That being said, there *is* some research into anti-gravity being done by NASA, and it's very possible that we may come to better understand and even traverse gravity waves at some point in the future. But that research is still in it's relative infancy, and even if it does become possible, it won't happen till long after any of us are carbon in the ground

 

[Tiki Tom]

Oh, c'mon. Just watch the trailer: (You will even be treated to a half-second glimpse of the famous Nazi Bell in action.)

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/abovemajestic

I jest, of course. (But that might not keep me from renting it one night when the Mrs is out with her gal pals.)

 

[Tiki Tom]

Got the book "Secrets of Anti-Gravity Propulsion". Oh. The title was so promising. I skimmed it for the fun bits and it was jargon dense to an uncomfortable degree. If you're an MIT grad and want a bedside read, grab it. It's the kind of book Sheldon and Leonard would giggle over. I doubt I'll ever read it unless I'm bedridden without a TV and can't reach anything else. At least Dr. Farrell's fantasies are engaging to read.
From my brief and painful survey, none of the subjects contained overlaps Bob Lazar's 'reports' of the alien technology he claims to have examined at area S2, if you believe that sort of thing. (I want to, but Mr. Lazar's bona fides are sketchy to say the least.)
Anyway, if you buy this, you now know what to expect.

Same topic. This is actually a pretty good site on military stuff. The article doesn't add much, but basically confirms some of the stuff we have seen elsewhere. Anti-Gravity propulsion! How fun is that?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-researching-anti-gravity-for-nearly-70-years

 

[GHT]

Same topic. This is actually a pretty good site on military stuff. The article doesn't add much, but basically confirms some of the stuff we have seen elsewhere. Anti-Gravity propulsion! How fun is that?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-researching-anti-gravity-for-nearly-70-years

The BBC ran a show for many years called: "Tomorrow's World." It was loosely based on science and technology, usually featuring crazy new gizmos. But occasionally it came up with some amazing experiments in the studio, one of them being something that, according to Newton's Law, shouldn't have happened. I remember that part of the apparatus involved a small gyroscope, and that a small movement was made from left to right. Raymond Baxter, the show presenter explained Newton's Law, then added that there should have been an opposite reaction, meaning that the movement, having gone from left to right, should have gone back to the left.

The program went out in black and white so it must have been in the sixties. I have given up searching for it, chances are that it was a spoof, this was at a time of great scientific excitement with the Lunar project that led to the moon landing, much was discussed, and challenged, but the only anti-gravity theory that I ever saw was a piece of graffiti in the students toilets that read: "Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks."

 

[EngProf]

The BBC ran a show for many years called: "Tomorrow's World." It was loosely based on science and technology, usually featuring crazy new gizmos. But occasionally it came up with some amazing experiments in the studio, one of them being something that, according to Newton's Law, shouldn't have happened. I remember that part of the apparatus involved a small gyroscope, and that a small movement was made from left to right. Raymond Baxter, the show presenter explained Newton's Law, then added that there should have been an opposite reaction, meaning that the movement, having gone from left to right, should have gone back to the left.

The program went out in black and white so it must have been in the sixties. I have given up searching for it, chances are that it was a spoof, this was at a time of great scientific excitement with the Lunar project that led to the moon landing, much was discussed, and challenged, but the only anti-gravity theory that I ever saw was a piece of graffiti in the students toilets that read: "Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks."

In my first NASA research effort we would occasionally get some very odd experimental results. Someone would inevitably make the statement that we had: 1) disproved the accepted laws of physics and we should immediately go collect our Nobel Prize or 2) made some sort of mistake in the experiment.
Unfortunately it was always alternative 2.

(Best scientific graffiti: "Heisenberg was here, or somewhere near here, probably.")

 

[filfoster]

I'm glad this old thread is still going and the lamentable History Channel fraud isn't.

 

[WillisandGeigerFan]

All logic dictates that Hitler killed himself in the bunker. If he got away, can someone explain to me why Goebbels and his wife poisoned their whole family and killed themselves in the Fuhrerbunker if their hero were running away to start the Fourth Reich?

 

[Just Jim]

All logic dictates that Hitler killed himself in the bunker. If he got away, can someone explain to me why Goebbels and his wife poisoned their whole family and killed themselves in the Fuhrerbunker if their hero were running away to start the Fourth Reich?

Cover story to support the faked Hitler demise. Yeah, that's it . . . .