Humphrey Bogart is Really Dead

[Stanley Doble]

Tim Cockey is a pinhead. Among all the idiocy I think the most jarring note is his reference to Bogart's "15 minutes of fame".

If you want to be technical, Bogart became a star in 1936 when The Petrified Forest debuted. If Pinhead Cockey says he is almost forgotten in 2015, that makes 79 years of fame.

He probably doesn't even know where the 15 minutes of fame meme comes from. If he did, he would know he got it exactly backwards.

Andy Warhol was talking about himself, when an interviewer asked him what it was like to be a celebrity. He answered that to him a celebrity was someone like Marilyn Monroe or Cary Grant. He did not think of himself as a star, but stardom had become a cheap and fleeting thing. Then he cracked that in the future, everyone would be famous - but for only 15 minutes.

Bogart was a real star, not a cheap flash in the pan.

It doesn't surprise me that a random group of teenagers never heard of Bogart. It would be surprising if they did. In fact these days fame lasts a lot longer than it used to, thanks to DVDs, Youtube, and the internet in general. But you need a certain level of maturity to appreciate Bogart's movies, which the present generation may reach about the age of 50.

This reminds me of an anecdote a Hollywood director set down in the early fifties. He asked a young actress to give him a Garbo look and she asked what's a Garbo look.

He was so shocked he had to sit down. But he reflected that the girl was in her early twenties, and Garbo's last movie was shown when she was about 2 years old. So it was not very surprising she never heard of Garbo.

At the time television was just coming in, and old movies were never seen after they were 2 or 3 years old.

Another example is Sunset Boulevard. The has been star has been out of the limelight for 20 years and is 52 years old. Nobody remembers her except a few old hands in the movie business, and a group of friends William Holden calls "the waxworks".

To put this in perspective, the modern equivalent would be an actress who was born in 1973, became a star in the 1980s, made her last movie 1995 and was now considered as ancient as the pyramids.

So Bogart at 116 is as out of date as, say, Madonna.

 

[ChiTownScion]

Football's day won't last forever, either. I'm almost willing to wager than its decline will start soon, if it hasn't already. There is no getting around the fact that the injuries are just too frequent and too devastating. The brain stuff that's gotten so much attention of late is perhaps the worst of it, but there's plenty of other bad to go around.

Like the fact that that the NFL has made 145 game rule changes from 1995 to 2014, and an additional 11 rule changes for the 2015 season alone? And usually made to increase revenue for the already filthy rich team owners. The funniest past is that the NFL is, on paper at least, a "not for profit corporation." The sooner we as a nation walk away from the NFL scam, the better.

 

[Zombie_61]

It says far more about America as a...oh, I don't know...cultured, intelligent country, than it does about Bogart...

It's been my experience that most people simply don't care about history (i.e., anything that pre-dates their own existence), and that extends to entertainment media such as music and movies. I've even had people tell me they refuse to watch any movie or television series that was filmed or otherwise recorded in black and white. I don't know if it has anything to do with culture or intelligence, but it appears to be simply a matter of personal preference; I have no idea if this is strictly an American mindset. As far as I'm concerned, it's their loss.

...As for Sinatra, I think part of the problem is that he stuck around too long past his prime, just like Bob Hope did. If younger people know who they are at all, it's as doddering old fossils, not as dynamic entertainers. I will say, though, that one of my theatre kids, age 22, frequently listens to the Sinatra channel on Pandora, and thinks he's "pretty cool."

I'm not sure about Sinatra, but Hope definitely stuck around too long. A friend of a friend worked for Hope during the last decade (or so) of his life, and said he (Hope) was almost completely out of touch with what was happening in the entertainment industry, and had been for several years. And that's why we saw the same "celebrities" like Loni Anderson, Dixie Carter, Brooke Shields, and Barbara Eden on Hope's specials again and again--Hope was convinced those people were so popular that they were who the American public wanted to see, and no one could convince him otherwise. For example, when the movie Crocodile Dundee became a hit in 1986 one of Hope's producers suggested they ask Paul Hogan to appear on that year's Christmas special. Hope hadn't heard of Hogan or the movie, so he rejected the idea. Then, a week before they were scheduled to begin filming the special, Hope approached that same producer and suggested he "Try to get that Crocodile fellow" for the special, but by then it was too late. And the real reason they stopped filming Hope's specials in Hawaii was because of his diminishing eyesight--they had to print Hope's cue cards so large that they required two people to hold them, and the sounds of the oversized cards flapping in the Hawaiian winds were being recorded by the microphones, ruining take after take. Hope had an amazing career, but it should have ended long before it actually did.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Tim Cockey is a pinhead. Among all the idiocy I think the most jarring note is his reference to Bogart's "15 minutes of fame".

If you want to be technical, Bogart became a star in 1936 when The Petrified Forest debuted. If Pinhead Cockey says he is almost forgotten in 2015, that makes 79 years of fame.

He probably doesn't even know where the 15 minutes of fame meme comes from. If he did, he would know he got it exactly backwards.

Andy Warhol was talking about himself, when an interviewer asked him what it was like to be a celebrity. He answered that to him a celebrity was someone like Marilyn Monroe or Cary Grant. He did not think of himself as a star, but stardom had become a cheap and fleeting thing. Then he cracked that in the future, everyone would be famous - but for only 15 minutes.

Bogart was a real star, not a cheap flash in the pan.

It doesn't surprise me that a random group of teenagers never heard of Bogart. It would be surprising if they did. In fact these days fame lasts a lot longer than it used to, thanks to DVDs, Youtube, and the internet in general. But you need a certain level of maturity to appreciate Bogart's movies, which the present generation may reach about the age of 50.

This reminds me of an anecdote a Hollywood director set down in the early fifties. He asked a young actress to give him a Garbo look and she asked what's a Garbo look.

He was so shocked he had to sit down. But he reflected that the girl was in her early twenties, and Garbo's last movie was shown when she was about 2 years old. So it was not very surprising she never heard of Garbo.

At the time television was just coming in, and old movies were never seen after they were 2 or 3 years old.

Another example is Sunset Boulevard. The has been star has been out of the limelight for 20 years and is 52 years old. Nobody remembers her except a few old hands in the movie business, and a group of friends William Holden calls "the waxworks".

To put this in perspective, the modern equivalent would be an actress who was born in 1973, became a star in the 1980s, made her last movie 1995 and was now considered as ancient as the pyramids.

So Bogart at 116 is as out of date as, say, Madonna.

A nice summary, although the actress you mentioned needs to be born in 1963. I can't believe I'm old enough for there to be Harrison Ford movie festivals where once there were Bogie ones. A girl at my work has never seen Harrison Ford in a film and cheerfully described the recent re-boot of Mad Max as based on a vintage film from early cinema.... I want to kill myself.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Like the fact that that the NFL has made 145 game rule changes from 1995 to 2014, and an additional 11 rule changes for the 2015 season alone? And usually made to increase revenue for the already filthy rich team owners. The funniest past is that the NFL is, on paper at least, a "not for profit corporation." The sooner we as a nation walk away from the NFL scam, the better.

I don't mind football as a game, but the NFL, as an organization, is as morally leprous as it's possible for an organization to be. And the college game isn't much better.

 

[Fading Fast]

I don't mind football as a game, but the NFL, as an organization, is as morally leprous as it's possible for an organization to be. And the college game isn't much better.

I agree but dislike college more as (and please just delete this post if its too political), the players are not student athletes (at the big league schools), but underpaid professional players in a sports league that generates billions for mega corporations - TV, etc - and education institutions. I'm amazed that there isn't more hue and cry for "college athletes" who play football to get paid the money they deserve.

Now off my soapbox. I, too, enjoy watching football (I like the pros better), but I recognized it as a crazy amped up game that is - as ChiTownscion notes - manipulated in every way to drive revenue and ratings. Baseball has more meaning for me (although, it's done a lot to abash itself as well over the years) owing to its overall history and my childhood connect with it.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I've been saying for years that both NCAA football and basketball should be abolished and replaced by professional minor leagues for their respective sports. The ridiculous fiction of "amateurism" corrupts both the sports and the schools that participate in them.

Baseball's hands are not especially clean, especially over the past twenty years or so, and there's a lot of things I'll change about it once I'm dictator, but it's got a long way to go before it becomes as completely debased as football and basketball.

At least there's still hockey. Go Bruins.

 

[Fading Fast]

I've been saying for years that both NCAA football and basketball should be abolished and replaced by professional minor leagues for their respective sports. The ridiculous fiction of "amateurism" corrupts both the sports and the schools that participate in them.

Baseball's hands are not especially clean, especially over the past twenty years or so, and there's a lot of things I'll change about it once I'm dictator, but it's got a long way to go before it becomes as completely debased as football and basketball.

At least there's still hockey. Go Bruins.

Fully agree with all above. And, if I am not shot in the first round of your dictatorship's execution of "traitors" and "counterrevolutionaries" as you consolidate power, maybe I can be appointed commissioner of baseball.

 

[LizzieMaine]

You'll be instrumental in my plans to bring the Dodgers back to Brooklyn.

 

[tonyb]

Like the fact that that the NFL has made 145 game rule changes from 1995 to 2014, and an additional 11 rule changes for the 2015 season alone? And usually made to increase revenue for the already filthy rich team owners. The funniest past is that the NFL is, on paper at least, a "not for profit corporation." The sooner we as a nation walk away from the NFL scam, the better.

I'm with you, man, but I ain't holding my breath just yet. Having recently moved from Seattle, where the local NFL club has enjoyed much on-field success of late, to Denver, where John Elway is a minor deity and Broncos swag is everywhere, I don't question for a second that ours is the minority view.

I truly angered some Seattle area friends earlier this year when the Seahawks lost the Superbowl, a game they might well have won had their quarterback not thrown a goal-line interception as time was running out. I'm talking fully grown people getting downright despondent over a football game. I'll admit to watching pro football, and hoping for one team or another to prevail, but dang, people, it's just a game.

 

[Bamaboots]

This thread has gone from Humphrey Bogart to the abolition of college football. Now you're trampling on my religion. Lizzie, I don't know if I'm in support of your dictatorship any longer. ROLL TIDE.

 

[Fading Fast]

You'll be instrumental in my plans to bring the Dodgers back to Brooklyn.

Now that is a job I've been waiting my entire life to have (and were he still alive, it would bring one big smile to my Dad's face - he never fully got over that treachery).

 

[2jakes]

This thread has gone from Humphrey Bogart to the abolition of college football. Now you're trampling on my religion. Lizzie, I don't know if I'm in support of your dictatorship any longer. ROLL TIDE.

But isn’t that one of the “perks” of dictatorship [huh]


ViVa Lizzie !

 

[LizzieMaine]

Wait'll I get started on the Olympics.

 

[Bamaboots]

Now you have my support.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Baseball certainly is not the dominant spectator sport it was as recently as my childhood years. Football supplanted it decades ago. But I wouldn't count it out. It's a game that is played by people of "normal" size all around the world, and has a place for people who might be able to perform but one of the skills peculiar to the game, but do it quite well. Many is the pudgy relief pitcher who enjoyed a successful baseball career. And many are the young men from faraway lands who grace the rosters of our major and minor league teams.

And because it is played during the summer months, a day (or evening) out at the ballpark is almost always a worthwhile experience, even if the cellar-dwelling local nine is getting shellacked yet again.

Football's rise can be attributed at least in part to television. It's a marriage made in heaven. But baseball on TV is much, much better than it used to be. Multiple cameras, split screens, etc.

Football's day won't last forever, either. I'm almost willing to wager than its decline will start soon, if it hasn't already. There is no getting around the fact that the injuries are just too frequent and too devastating. The brain stuff that's gotten so much attention of late is perhaps the worst of it, but there's plenty of other bad to go around.

A couple of random thoughts:

1. It depends on how one defines the "spectator". Baseball's in-person attendance dwarfs that of football. MLB attendance is around 75MM/year, while the NFL is around 17MM. Of course there are a lot more games in baseball, but it's still an indicator of interest.

2. MLB attendance has quadrupled since the 1950s, considered baseball's "golden age". Yes, the number of teams has almost doubled and the stadiums have gotten larger, but that's a function of product demand. And again, this certainly doesn't signal a decline in interest, as is often argued.

3. The NFL gets higher national TV ratings, but MLB's regional games dominate their local cable and satellite markets in terms of ratings.

4. It's often argued that you don't see kids playing baseball in the sandlot anymore; therefore, they must be losing interest. While the former is certainly true, latter is not a necessary conclusion. Participation in organized baseball leagues is at an all time high, while participation in youth football leagues is declining (mostly due to injury concerns).

5. Participation is not a really good indicator of interest in a sport. One of the most popular sports in the world is auto racing, and very few people got out and raced cars after school when they were kids.

6. Soccer (or futbol, depending on where you are) in the US has supposedly been on the rise for 50 years. It's a soccer boom they tell us, and in 10 years, it will supplant football and baseball and basketball. Well, they've been saying that for 50 years, and it's just not the case. The "soccer boom" begins at age 4 and ends about age 10. Not that there is anything wrong with soccer...there are just some aspects that American sports fans find unappealing.

 

[2jakes]

Wait'll I get started on the Olympics.

Olympics?

I always think of John Cameron Swayze & that watch !

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's time to bring the Olympics back to basics. Nude Decathalon.

 

[Bamaboots]

Oh God, Lizzie. If they had that years ago would it be Bruce or Caitlyn?

 

[tonyb]

My understanding is that if we use total attendance as a measure, then auto racing is the most popular sport in the country.

Obviously, then, butts in the seats isn't the most telling statistic. And while it's true that only a very, very small segment of auto racing's audience has ever driven on a race track, the large majority of them drive cars. Part of NASCAR's appeal is that the cars kinda resemble what a person can buy down at his Chevy or Ford or whatever dealership.

As to baseball attendance being up so dramatically from 60 years ago ... Sure. Many more teams, and many more people. The U.S. population is nearly double what it was then. And a large slice of that demographic are Hispanic, and baseball is big among los Latinos Americanos.

The Colorado Rockies are having a bad year. They've been out of the running in all but a statistical sense since early in the season. Still, a weeknight game I attended between the Rockies and the lowly Seattle Mariners down at Coors Field earlier this month drew 34K. The seats I was confident I could buy at the stadium were sold out before I arrived. And the lines at the ticket windows were long. On a weeknight. To watch two losing teams.

Consider also all those minor league teams, drawing a few thousand here and a few thousand there, all over the country, all summer long. A quick search indicates that it totaled more than 42 million attendees last year.

Football, though, has a stronger hold on the overall public's attention. Attribute that mostly to television. Going out to a baseball game is about going out, as the example cited above pretty clearly illustrates. (Which is why baseball and domed stadiums is a marriage made in Hell.) But the best seat for football is the one in your living room, in front of your widescreen with the surround sound system. Me, I dig the closeups of the dancing girls they trot out during breaks in the action on the field. Much better view than you get from that hundred-dollar seat at the stadium.