Humphrey Bogart is Really Dead

[LizzieMaine]

As a subcategory of this thread (not worthy of its own thread): From your childhood / teenage years, which cultural icon's eventual decent into cultural obscurity will be most impactful to you (when we are all old doddering men and women)?

For me it would be / will be Elvis and the Rolling Stones (they were mega stars / for decades / impacted society powerfully and beyond just music / well known by people who would never listen to their music / and have, at least to this day, strong recognition across generations forty plus years past their pop-culture peak). If I live long enough to see a day when most of society has no or, at best, a very small knowledge of these entertainers (remember, many who hate them, still know who they are), I will know I am very, very, very old.

And while we are not there yet, I believe that we are getting closer to the day that Frank Sinatra falls into this category. You could feel the marketing machine sputtering as it tried to gin up genuine interest in the 100 anniversary of his birth this year and - IMHO - it only captured minor interest from some people my age (51) and older, but didn't dent the Taylor Swift generation or even have a broad impact in the targeted audience.

For me, it'll be Carl Yastrzemski. If you grew up in New England in the sixties and seventies, he was the towering icon that everybody knew. Tony Conigliaro was better looking, and Rico Petrocelli sounded more intelligent in dugout interviews, and George Scott was more laughs, but Yaz was The Man.

For that matter, it's the constant and tragic descent of baseball itself into cultural irrelevance that bothers me. In my childhood it was the lingua franca of the neighborhood -- *everbody* from schoolkids to old ladies followed baseball and knew exactly how the Red Sox were doing at any given moment. Your allegience to your team was as essential to your identity as your church or your political party.

I'll never forget the look of utter disdain I got from some blonde-haired tourist a couple of summers back when he asked me if I had an update on the World Cup and I had to confess that I had no idea who was playing, where, or why. People in my world never had any awareness of any sports other than baseball and high school basketball, so why should I know about soccer?

As for Sinatra, I think part of the problem is that he stuck around too long past his prime, just like Bob Hope did. If younger people know who they are at all, it's as doddering old fossils, not as dynamic entertainers. I will say, though, that one of my theatre kids, age 22, frequently listens to the Sinatra channel on Pandora, and thinks he's "pretty cool."

 

[Worf]

And that list was compiled sixteen years ago, which, in terms of popular culture, was a very very long time ago. I doubt a similar list compiled today would come out quite the same. I suspect 2015 voters would rank George Clooney higher than Clark Gable.

I agree... if done today it would be shuffled up beyond recognition. Time passes.... icons fade and fall away. It is the nature of things... However unlike those icons of the past those in the performing arts do achieve a lasting immortality. Shakespere is still performed as is Brahms, Mozart, Ellington, authors are still read and Bogart will still be watched... they may fade but never disappear until the meteor hits or Putin pushes the button in desperation.

Worf

 

[tonyb]

I'm sure we've all heard that line about Elvis's dying being a brilliant career move. He had become something of a caricature of himself, and a bad one. But I suspect that he will "live" until the baby boom generation's kids are gone, mostly on account of his being such a glaring symbol of 1970s tackiness.

It's a shame in that he had that certain something when he first came on the scene. But then they tried to make a matinee idol of him (truly dreadful movies), and then he got quite bloated, and most of his later music was instantly forgettable. Fewer sights are sadder than a still relatively young person who used to be a sex symbol, and everyone except for him and the gals in curlers at the front of the auditorium knows it.

 

[2jakes]

I agree... if done today it would be shuffled up beyond recognition. Time passes.... icons fade and fall away. It is the nature of things... However unlike those icons of the past those in the performing arts do achieve a lasting immortality. Shakespere is still performed as is Brahms, Mozart, Ellington, authors are still read and Bogart will still be watched... they may fade but never disappear until the meteor hits or Putin pushes the button in desperation.

Worf

A+++++

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm sure we've all heard that line about Elvis's dying being a brilliant career move. He had become something of a caricature of himself, and a bad one. But I suspect that he will "live" until the baby boom generation's kids are gone, mostly on account of his being such a glaring symbol of 1970s tackiness.

It's a shame in that he had that certain something when he first came on the scene. But then they tried to make a matinee idol of him (truly dreadful movies), and then he got quite bloated, and most of his later music was instantly forgettable. Fewer sights are sadder than a still relatively young person who used to be a sex symbol, and everyone except for him and the gals in curlers at the front of the auditorium knows it.

My mother, a member of the Class of 1957, should have been prime Elvis bait -- but she *despised* him, thought he was "nasty," and never owned a single one of his records. Her show-biz idol as a teenager, and still to this day, was and is another glamorous fifties entertainer whose life ended amidst unspeakable glitz -- Liberace. Speaking of personalities who have vanished completely from the cultural radar...

 

[Fading Fast]

For me, it'll be Carl Yastrzemski. If you grew up in New England in the sixties and seventies, he was the towering icon that everybody knew. Tony Conigliaro was better looking, and Rico Petrocelli sounded more intelligent in dugout interviews, and George Scott was more laughs, but Yaz was The Man.

For that matter, it's the constant and tragic descent of baseball itself into cultural irrelevance that bothers me. In my childhood it was the lingua franca of the neighborhood -- *everbody* from schoolkids to old ladies followed baseball and knew exactly how the Red Sox were doing at any given moment. Your allegience to your team was as essential to your identity as your church or your political party.

I'll never forget the look of utter disdain I got from some blonde-haired tourist a couple of summers back when he asked me if I had an update on the World Cup and I had to confess that I had no idea who was playing, where, or why. People in my world never had any awareness of any sports other than baseball and high school basketball, so why should I know about soccer?

Even growing up 250 miles away and attending the Church of Pinstripes, I understand your Yaz reference fully.

I, too, weep for baseball's "constant and tragic descent " (nicely said). In addition to the loss of the social bonds as you note, I wish more people today could appreciate the elegant cadence of the game that, for some reason, makes listening to it on radio one of life's still great simple pleasures.

Some force has been trying to jam soccer down America's throat at least since I was a kid in the '70s and, for all the effort spent, I think the results are embarrassing. Football on the other hand is now the American sport.

 

[Fading Fast]

My mother, a member of the Class of 1957, should have been prime Elvis bait -- but she *despised* him, thought he was "nasty," and never owned a single one of his records. Her show-biz idol as a teenager, and still to this day, was and is another glamorous fifties entertainer whose life ended amidst unspeakable glitz -- Liberace. Speaking of personalities who have vanished completely from the cultural radar...

My Mom, too, should have been an Elvis fan, but he just never worked for her. She didn't have antipathy toward him, but he just past her by.

And Tony B, (from a career / historical record perspective and I don't mean this literally or cruelly), Elvis should have walked off the stage of his 1968 Comeback Special and right into an oncoming bus. That special was everything Elvis had been, should have been for the prior eight years (which he spent making one movie ten or so times) and could have been going forward. (Another not literal comment coming), Marylyn Monroe timed her death better as she was on the cusp of becoming a mess like Elvis (you can see it if you look closely at the last movie / pictures), but checked out right before she would have become a sad simulacrum of the force she had been (and I'm not a particular Marylyn fan).

 

[LizzieMaine]

To see what Marilyn would have become had she lived, you need look no further than Shelley Winters.

 

[tonyb]

Baseball certainly is not the dominant spectator sport it was as recently as my childhood years. Football supplanted it decades ago. But I wouldn't count it out. It's a game that is played by people of "normal" size all around the world, and has a place for people who might be able to perform but one of the skills peculiar to the game, but do it quite well. Many is the pudgy relief pitcher who enjoyed a successful baseball career. And many are the young men from faraway lands who grace the rosters of our major and minor league teams.

And because it is played during the summer months, a day (or evening) out at the ballpark is almost always a worthwhile experience, even if the cellar-dwelling local nine is getting shellacked yet again.

Football's rise can be attributed at least in part to television. It's a marriage made in heaven. But baseball on TV is much, much better than it used to be. Multiple cameras, split screens, etc.

Football's day won't last forever, either. I'm almost willing to wager than its decline will start soon, if it hasn't already. There is no getting around the fact that the injuries are just too frequent and too devastating. The brain stuff that's gotten so much attention of late is perhaps the worst of it, but there's plenty of other bad to go around.

 

[Fading Fast]

I agree... if done today it would be shuffled up beyond recognition. Time passes.... icons fade and fall away. It is the nature of things... However unlike those icons of the past those in the performing arts do achieve a lasting immortality. Shakespere is still performed as is Brahms, Mozart, Ellington, authors are still read and Bogart will still be watched... they may fade but never disappear until the meteor hits or Putin pushes the button in desperation.

Worf

It will be interesting for our great and great-great grandkids to see (I'll be long dead and forgotten the day I die) if movies have the artistic staying power of great literature and great music (musicians). Yes, Shakespeare and Fitzgerald will be read 500 years from now (assuming there is a 500 years from now) as art to be appreciated, but will Bogie, "Casablanca," Orson Welles, "Citizen Kane" be seen as long lasting art or just historical reference points?

 

[Fading Fast]

To see what Marilyn would have become had she lived, you need look no further than Shelley Winters.

Hate to say it, but that is probably the best scenario.

 

[2jakes]

Some force has been trying to jam soccer down America's throat at least since I was a kid in the '70s and, for all the effort spent, I think the results are embarrassing. Football on the other had is now the American sport.

I once asked an aficionado about the game of soccer & why it was so popular in his country.

He replied with a slight arrogant pride... that the fans appreciate the manner in which the play is
structured regardless of whether the point is made .

In America, fans are used to instant results whether from a 1/2 hr. sit-com with a solution at the end
or a basketball & American football game where points are rapid & become bored if there is no scoring immediately !

Since I’m not an avid fan of basketball or football, I didn’t have a reply.

 

[Fading Fast]

Baseball certainly is not the dominant spectator sport it was as recently as my childhood years. Football supplanted it decades ago. But I wouldn't count it out. It's a game that is played by people of "normal" size all around the world, and has a place for people who might be able to perform but one of the skills peculiar to the game, but do it quite well. Many is the pudgy relief pitcher who enjoyed a successful baseball career. And many are the young men from faraway lands who grace the rosters of our major and minor league teams.

And because it is played during the summer months, a day (or evening) out at the ballpark is almost always a worthwhile experience, even if the cellar-dwelling local nine is getting shellacked yet again.

Football's rise can be attributed at least in part to television. It's a marriage made in heaven. But baseball on TV is much, much better than it used to be. Multiple cameras, split screens, etc.

Football's day won't last forever, either. I'm almost willing to wager than its decline will start soon, if it hasn't already. There is no getting around the fact that the injuries are just too frequent and too devastating. The brain stuff that's gotten so much attention of late is perhaps the worst of it, but there's plenty of other bad to go around.

A good friend took my girlfriend and me to a Yankee playoff game a few years back (the only playoff game in any sport I've ever been to - boy is the energy amped up for those games) and CC Sabathia pitched a complete winning game. For the eight and ninth inning, the crowd was on its feet with every pitch he threw and chanting "CC!," "CC!" the entire time as a clearly tiring CC through skill and will pitched to a one-run victory. As my girlfriend and I stood there, we both chatted about and marveled at the fact that this clearly overweight man was still an athlete in every sense of the word. Your point is spot on.

 

[Fading Fast]

I once asked an aficionado about the game of soccer & why it was so popular in his country.

He replied with a slight arrogant pride... that the fans appreciate the manner in which the play is
structured regardless of whether the point is made or not.

In America, fans are used to instant results whether from a 1/2 hr. sit-com with a solution at the end
or a basketball & American football game where points are rapid & become bored if there is no scoring immediately !

Since I’m not an avid fan of basketball or football, I didn’t have a reply.

I respect that view, but a pitchers duel - much appreciated by Americans for generations - is all about structure, strategy and mental stamina - not scoring and flash. I used to think it was all about what game you grew up playing and seeing as a kid, but kids in this country have been playing soccer for decades and its popularity, while growing, is still small compared to baseball or football which I would bet, today, less American kids play than soccer.

 

[tonyb]

My mother, a member of the Class of 1957, should have been prime Elvis bait -- but she *despised* him, thought he was "nasty," and never owned a single one of his records. Her show-biz idol as a teenager, and still to this day, was and is another glamorous fifties entertainer whose life ended amidst unspeakable glitz -- Liberace. Speaking of personalities who have vanished completely from the cultural radar...

Great example of the 15 minute rule, although in the case of Liberace it was more like an hour. But once he was gone, he was indeed gone. His fan base, the elderly folks from Dubuque, died around the time he died. And any posthumous career as a gay icon never got off the ground on account of his public denial of his gayness all his life.

It's a tragic story in many ways. He was indeed quite amusing. He told the same jokes over and over again, but they worked on his audience. And his staying "closeted" (such as he was) was probably necessary to retain that audience. You know, the old squares from Dubuque.

He and Vegas were made for each other. But even Vegas forgot him soon enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberace_Museum

 

[2jakes]

I respect that view, but a pitchers duel - much appreciated by Americans for generations - is all about structure, strategy and mental stamina - not scoring and flash. I used to think it was all about what game you grew up playing and seeing as a kid, but kids in this country have been playing soccer for decades and its popularity, while growing, is still small compared to baseball or football which I would bet, today, less American kids play than soccer.

I grew up playing “baseball” which consisted of who ever own what might have resembled a baseball (even a tennis ball ) was in
charge. we went to the nearest vacant lot & had a blast.


Today, I ride my vintage bikes around the parks & baseball fields.
I see the kids all decked out in full uniforms with coaches, umpires & parents.

What I don’t see is the smiles on the kids .

 

[ingineer]

I hate this song 'American Pie'
But the lyrics stick in my head

'I went down to the sacred store
Where I'd heard the music years before
But the man there said the music wouldn't play"

i'm Stuck between Big Band and R&R
Lionel Hampton? my friend asked , who was he?
Any Big Band for that matter
Even from my youth
Ricky Nelson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLm9KX-LvMM

 

[2jakes]

I hate this song 'American Pie'
But the lyrics stick in my head

'I went down to the sacred store
Where I'd heard the music years before
But the man there said the music wouldn't play"

i'm Stuck between Big Band and R&R
Lionel Hampton? my friend asked , who was he?
Any Big Band for that matter
Even from my youth
Ricky Nelson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLm9KX-LvMM

I always go to that song & I know it’ll be all right !

 

[Hercule]

Re Liberace -

His talent was actually quite real, and say what you will about his marketing of himself (for lack of a better term), it was quite successful. I actually visited the Liberace Museum in Vegas many many years ago and was kind of sad to learn that it had closed. At the time I was quite impressed to learn that his collection included several historically significant 18th and 19th century pianos.

 

[tonyb]

Yeah, Liberace was not without genuine talent. And his shtick was indeed effective. Gotta give 'em that. Campy almost beyond belief, but it worked.

I remain a Victor Borge fan. He was still quite active and vibrant in my younger years, but his fan base was a generation (or two) ahead of me. Turns out that he was a true virtuoso, a world-class player. Like Liberace, he brought longhair music to the masses, but that's where the similarities end. Borge's humor was of a whole 'nother variety. Saying which one was superior says more about me than the respective ivory tinklers, but know that I can handle maybe five minutes of Liberace until I've seen about all that his routine has to offer, while I can watch the entire Victor Borge special on PBS on Saturday nights, interrupted by the pleas for donations to your local station.