how many A-2s does it take to make an A-2 (not a joke)

[johnnyjohnny]

Just got done reading posts for member tripreed’s decision whether to get a G-1 or A-2 for a first military leather jacket...as most replies pointed out, it’s not whether, just which first...

My first was easy (jacket that is)...with a long runner’s neck I always liked that fur collar filling in around, and made a wonderful decision five years ago getting an actual current issue G-1 from U.S.Wings... wings was selling the current (still) supplied G-1 for the U.S. Coast Guard. But recently I got the hunger for an A-2...neck’s gotten a touch bigger, calisthenics, but mostly I discovered A-2's look good when a bit snug a la their true military style...so I stepped into the field of landmines choosing an A-2...so this post became...how many A-2s does it take to make an A-2...

it’s like ice cream...I’m going to get some ice cream...well then, I have to decide which flavour...and in A-2s, as the knowledgable folks here know and I recently found out, there are soooooo many flavours of A-2...making it worse (or better), many are militarily/historically correct, so it’s not a matter of picking right...you can pick right and still spend thousands and get 30 jackets...

I wouldn’t presume to suggest anything about which to get, but after spending close to $1200 for three A-2s, I think I’ve bought a ticket to post why I chose which...and some of the reasons may make other members choke, but it’s like what kind of woman do you like, suicide blondes, natural reds, etc....all subjective in the end...so my choices and reasons...

1. The ‘Causual’ but pedigreed (sorta):
deciding on something with some legitimacy, came upon the idea of going with the current contractor for the current USAF-supplied A-2...but also wanted niceties that ‘real’ A-2s don’t have...getting the current supplier’s jacket in the ‘21st Century’ version (meaning hidden, they had to be hidden, handwarmer pockets, didn’t care about added inside pockets tho I got ‘em with this), what I got looked exactly like their USAF current-issue A-2 (yeah, except the neck hook closure...I’ve been perverted so much by this forum that it bothers me it’s not on there)

that jacket, then, is the cockpitusa current issue goatskin...this is one of my two choices that should make hard core A-2 guys choke or gag...not WW2 specs, not even fully military, but except for the neck hook closure, it looks it...being an L.A. native, looks are important...no?

main thing about this jacket, aside from it being 99 percent the current issue, is the handwarmers were hidden...there are some really great jackets out there, but seeing those inappropriate slits on the sides of the pockets was just tooo wrong...so for me, if handwarmers were needed at least don’t let it show

2. The ‘DanDeee’ but historical (sorta) horsehide:
back to the obsession with necks and collars...came across a jacket (also a cockpitusa) having the cut and collar that I haddddd to havvvvvve...my opinion is it’s the best looking cut of all the jackets, but it has one big horrible drawback that will really make hard cores choke...

It’s the horsehide flying tiger cockpitusa...done choking yet? Well, then...the jacket itself is superb I think, and while not an ‘historical’ copy of an actual WW2 horsehide, the design and cut and actual construction is true to the historical elements...and it just looks excellent...the downside for me originally was the flying tiger patches and bloodchit on the back...what would make true blue guys gag about this...

Not having been in the CBI conflict, and thus having no claim to wearing those patches, and also wanting an A-2, not a baseball team jacket, or worse, one of those NASCAR things with patches everywhere, I was aghast when I found myself ordering this because I loved the cut...

When I got the thing, it looked even better in person...and, a nod to cockpitusa, the leather patches and bloodchit (would never get a silk or cloth back bloodchit which would wear out rather quickly) were subdued in colour with a slight look of having been dirty or aged with use...the jacket, while still smelling of ‘team spirit’ and ‘flash’, and probably not 100 percent historical on the patches, was still absolutely gorgeous, and the patches didn’t look stupid...but it still has the choking factor for the true hard cores...though my next choice may at least gain back some credibility...

3. The ‘Legit’ WW2 horsehide without breaking the bank:
this one came with the promise that this was it for these jackets (at least until I betray myself)...

After buying the ‘flash’ horsehide above, I needed to respect myself...and wanted something that had the cut I liked...perusing websites I came back across flightsuits.com, or what was gibson and barnes...

having horsehide fever after getting the team spirit horsehide above, and now wanting legitimacy in a jacket, flightsuits’ WW2 historical (as they proclaim it) horsehide had a lot to offer...

As they say on the site, it is not a copy of any specific make of WW2, however, it uses the best looking of the historical elements (collar, fit, pockets, etc.) and combines them for a best of the best look with all historical elements of a WW2 horsehide jacket...

Now, admittedly for some true hard cores, this may still have the choke factor to it...but again, being from lalaland, looks seem to matter for me...the collar was not overly pointed or flappy, and had a ‘stand’ (if you ordered that option for $50 more) so it stood up on the neck even more...

despite a price in the $400s, I couldn’t hold off punching in the credit card...howevahhh, a word to the quick and wise, when I called the next day to verify the order, I found the website prices hadn’t been updated yet, and within the next week or two, everything would be going to the El Cajon, California store price of $100 more...if I had hopes of saving some money and cancelling my order, they evapped then and there...

This is the one jacket I haven’t gotten yet, as it’s being made precisely for me, having ordered a 44 long mahogany colour, which wasn’t in store stock...but am doubting I will regret having made the puchase...


Like the ‘Naked City’, the 60s noir TV show with opening narration by pepper-voiced Walter Winchell, I’m sure there are hundreds of stories about how many A-2s it took to make an A-2 for various obsessed jacket buffs...more like an A-2 quiver as surfers say of the numerous boards they have for various conditions...

As for tripreed, last he wrote he’d bought a Schott G-1 style...well, now that he’s taken care of the G-1, he can think of all the A-2s he’s going to have to get to get ‘his’ A-2

anyone know where I can get stock in a publicly-traded A-2 manufacturer’s company?

Johnnyjohnny

here are url's to the jackets discussed:
current cockpit with handwarmer pocks and nO collar hook (booh!):
http://www.cockpitusa.com/store/show_product_image.php?imageid=1341

flying tiger with patches horsehide by cockpit:
http://www.cockpitusa.com/store/show_product_image.php?imageid=1305

best of the best? flightsuits.com historical horse:
http://flightsuits.com/leather_a2_hist_horse_lg.html

and finally, that great wingsusa.com us coast guard issue g-1:
http://uswings.com/images/SSGoatUSCGG1_catalog.jpg

 

[Fletch]

I can't imagine a flight jacket maker EVER going public. Stockholders have a right to know about the way the business is run, and jacket makers have trhe craft ethic, which means fiercely protective of their secrets.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

.....coulda had a GoodWear...

 

[Atticus Finch]

Hi Folks,

Authenticity in reproduction flight jackets has always reminded me of the old physics riddle of how long it takes to run to a destination if one travels half the distance in each step. The answer to the riddle---and to the issue of A-2 authenticity---is that one never gets there. Reproduction flight jackets can come very close to being the real thing, but, of course, they never actually are.

Johnny, if you want a great A-2, don't waste your money on anybody's reproduction jacket. Just save up and get an WWII original or buy one of the (real) current issue jackets off of e-bay.

Atticus

 

[ldmax]

Waste of money?

Finch, I doubt anyone who has bought an Eastman, RMNZ, Flightsuits, Goodwear, etc considers it a waste of money. If you want an actual piece of history, by all means buy an original. Most of us want a good looking jacket we can actually wear.

Tony

 

[Edward]

Finch makes a fair point that ultimately however close you get, only the real thing is the real thing, however I would certainly agree that this does not mean there is no place for a stitch-for-stitch accurate replica. I can understand the desire some have to collect originals for their very nature as historical artefacts, but for those who re-enact or even simply want a 30s / 40s design jacket as a regular wardrobe item, a reproduction offers the chance to own something that we don't need to feel precious about, or as if we are somehow in danger of ruining an irreplaceable piece of history by wearing it regularly. A quality repro may be no cheaper than an original, but knowing that, worst case scenario, it can always be replaced with an identical replica makes it ultimately much more wearable to me. The other thing is that regular wear will eventually take its toll on the knits of an original. To me, there's a whole lot of difference between replacing a worn knit on a replica and doing the same on an original A2.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

repLicants or mutants? which A-2?

i thank all the people here and their posts...to be honest, it was info i got coming here that pulled me away from the more mutant A-2s, towards, if not an Eastman or GoodWear replicant, at least a respectable A-2 in the spirit and accurate (if not replicated stitch for stitch) design of a WW2 A-2...

the education i got here kept me from buying the schotts, or cockpitusa lambskins, or uswings updated A-2s, none of which are at all bad, and in fact rather good...but when it comes to getting some authenticity i guess i was happy to go half way, using that running distance analogy above...

having never cared about stitch for stitch accuracy, or even too much WW2 specificity, after spending some time in the lounge here, i had to have at least a jacket that had the proper elements of a WW2 A-2, even if some came from one maker, others from another...

akin to getting a retro 50s car that has the fins of a caddy, the headlights of a bel aire (just not anything from an edsel i hope)...in the flying tiger cockpit horsehide and the flightsuits horsehide, i think i got at least the proper elements, if not faithful to any one manufacturer...and with the current issue cockpitusa, while technically a bastardization of the A-2 design, is like a word in Websters dictionary, legitimatized because it is what is currently used...legitimate as a representation of what's extant today...so hence that jacket...

funny how the G-1, while it has some of these pitfalls (i do see some great military used ones on ebay that do not have a storm flap for instance) has less variants than the A-2 question i first posed, how many A-2s does it take to make an A-2...though, i may have opened a can of worms and my G-1 education may just be beginning...be easy please...

johnny johnny

 

[Fletch]

4 in 1 A-2

If I could Frankenstein something together out of my current A-2s it would come together as follows:

Good Wear Bonanza Mesa hide
Aero rust knits, about 1" longer at the cuffs
Lost Worlds Dubow pockets, epaulets, liner and body cut
Willis & Geiger collar, sleeve and armhole cuts
Black nipple snaps
Brass Talon bell-pull zipper

 

[Fletch]

...for those who re-enact or even simply want a 30s / 40s design jacket as a regular wardrobe item, a reproduction offers the chance to own something that we don't need to feel precious about

Possibly OT: Seems to me the prewar repro A-2s (Aero '38/'40 contracts, ELC Werber, etc.) find their market outside the US rather than inside. American jacketheads are more into what is typical of the combat aviator.

 

[Edward]

Possibly OT: Seems to me the prewar repro A-2s (Aero '38/'40 contracts, ELC Werber, etc.) find their market outside the US rather than inside. American jacketheads are more into what is typical of the combat aviator.

I always smile when I read Americans referring to 40 as "prewar" - which of course it was for you guys. My education in history has engrained WW2 as being 39 through 45 so heavily than anything else looks "wrong" - even if it is, depdnding on your criteria, perfectly correct. Funny how differing perspective changes things, eh? Anyhow.... it's interesting you say that. My tendency as a still very new admirer of flight jackets is to prefer the prewar models which were made to a design based on ideal conditions, without shortages of leather etc. From a purely design point of view, those jackets seem superior to me. But that's the thing - to me they're "only" jackets - my interest in them is from the POV of them as an item of clothing to be incorporated into my civilian lifestyle. I can well understand that somebody whose interest in an A2, B3, or whatever is born not out of simple appreciation for the jacket itself but an enthusiasm for the period and a desire to have something that replicates what a combat pilot would have been issued with in 1942 would prefer something more reflective of that period, great number of panels, slightly mismatched leather or whatever "flaws" that it might have from a pure design POV. Back to perspective.

the education i got here kept me from buying the schotts, or cockpitusa lambskins, or uswings updated A-2s, none of which are at all bad, and in fact rather good...but when it comes to getting some authenticity i guess i was happy to go half way, using that running distance analogy above...

having never cared about stitch for stitch accuracy, or even too much WW2 specificity, after spending some time in the lounge here, i had to have at least a jacket that had the proper elements of a WW2 A-2, even if some came from one maker, others from another...

akin to getting a retro 50s car that has the fins of a caddy, the headlights of a bel aire (just not anything from an edsel i hope)...in the flying tiger cockpit horsehide and the flightsuits horsehide, i think i got at least the proper elements, if not faithful to any one manufacturer...and with the current issue cockpitusa, while technically a bastardization of the A-2 design, is like a word in Websters dictionary, legitimatized because it is what is currently used...legitimate as a representation of what's extant today...so hence that jacket...

I think there's a lot to be said for this. Seems that for you (like myself to a fair degree, I guess) it's about something that is reflective of the style of the period and could conceivably have been produced then, as opposed to something that definitively was. And you're prepared to make some compromises on detail against price. I think that's a fair summary? All eminently sensible. Yet again, it's all a matter of perspective and what the individual wants - a stitch for stitch accurate replica of what would have been issued in 193x / 194x, a great jacket with that general era of style..... whatever. Personally, I think the idea of a "best of all features" A2 is a great one.... and probably, to add an air of period authenticity, not far off what some higher ranking officers who would have had access to a] the best examples and b] could have had it retailored to their preferences, might have sported. It's akin to a great historical novel, or a show like Cabaret, or The Plough and the Stars: it's a fiction in one sense, but equally wholly plausible.

Whatever one goes for, it seems to me that the important thing is not to lose sight of why you want it. Ultimately, it's about having a jacket you can take some pride and pleasure in - whether that's as a completion to a repro uniform, or a general jacket to wear about, or whatever. By all means, shoot for the best with no compromise, or make your compromises.... as long as we're all happy with our own choices, isn't that what matters in the end?

 

[Fletch]

Well put, Edward. Helps explain how some of us wind up with collections...

akin to getting a retro 50s car that has the fins of a caddy, the headlights of a bel aire (just not anything from an edsel i hope)...

This is another thing I notice - especially over at the VLJ board. Many jacketeers are nostalgiacs, but not necessarily into 40s culture outside of military history. Their tastes often run to the 50s and 60s in cars, music, and the like. Several have collectible guitars hanging around (me, I got saxophones). Few to none are dress-up guys, their clothesways running to denim, sweats, and workshirts.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Finch, I doubt anyone who has bought an Eastman, RMNZ, Flightsuits, Goodwear, etc considers it a waste of money. If you want an actual piece of history, by all means buy an original. Most of us want a good looking jacket we can actually wear.

Tony

Hi Idmax,

I agree that repros are not a waste of money to those who like their repros. Sounds like a tautology, doesn't it? But, yes, I have known people who were dissatisfied and disappointed with each of the brands of jacket you mention above---except Goodwear.

In fact, it seems to me that quite a few people who purchase expensive repros are not happy with them when they arrive. Their new jackets are too baggy or too snug. They are too seal or too russet. The leather is too thin and paperish or too thick and heavy. The hardware is too shiny or the thread count is not correct. Worst of all, their new jacket simply doesn't look like the originals they've seen in period photographs.

And, of course, I think that's the problem. They are comparing their new thousand-dollar-plus repro jackets to the originals and something is missing. They can't put their finger on it, but something just isn't quite there. So they buy another, perhaps more expensive, repro from another maker only to repeat the cycle. They are blaming the details of their new reproduction jacket for their dissatisfaction, but the problem is much bigger and it isn't in the details. What they are seeking---and missing---is reality.

There is a certain character---a personality, if you will---possessed by original flight jackets that cannot be reproduced. I can't describe it, but it exists only in the real jackets. Moreover, when one is wearing an original, the details of his or her jacket become much less important. The leather is correct. The finish is correct. The thread count is correct. And if the jacket is even close to fitting its owner, then the fit is correct. Yes, each of these details may be far from perfect, but, by definition, they are all exactly correct.

So, if one really likes his new reproduction flight jacket---be it a two-hundred-dollar Cooper or a twelve-hundred-dollar Aero---then I agree, he or she hasn't wasted any money. On the other hand, if that new repro A-2 that just arrived in the mail is the third A-2 you've purchased in the last two years, and it still isn't quite "right", then maybe you're not really wanting a repro, after all.

Maybe what you're looking for is reality.

Atticus

 

[HoosierDaddy]

No..there are some of us that are quite satisfied with repros. When I opened the box and pulled out my first WW2 1940s patterned repro Aero RealDeal,I was quite satisfied. The jerky russet hide was a thrill,and the fit was to a T. Next I ordered one in seal,then one distinctively "Aero" with the rust knits in seal buffalo hide(almost a match to some '40s HH)...only to have different colors and hides in the WW2 pattern. Then I invested in a jerky russet authentic WW2 Aero. However,I only wear it on special occassions in order to keep the 60 yr old jacket in it's present condition. A repro of the '40s military A2 has the trimmer style and shape that I prefer. I have no interest whatsoever in owning a modern "issue" A2 with oversized fit and velcro patches,no matter how genuinely modern military it is.
What you are picking up on is those enthusiasts that discuss and nitpick all the little details continuously. However,there are many of us who are not so inclined to be concerned if the thread is of absolutely correct material and thread count,etc. We offer little to those conversations because we are quite happy with our WW2 era styled lookalikes.
The exquisitely patterned A2s and finished hides....etc. are quite unique to the top three repro makers. Few are muddy or heavily finished. No pilling knit and,yes,include WW2 era features. Goodwear has probably surpassed them with more beautiful hides and someone making a repro with a more profound interest in a mirror copy of a "WW2" original.
For some,it's also a matter of style. Rather than having a oversized modern suit(an authentic suit!),some prefer '30s '40s button ups with the style of that period..reproed or genuine.
I do know that the big three repro makers raise prices,but a $1200 Aero repro A2? I payed less than half that for mine.
HD

 

[Atticus Finch]

Hi HD,

Point well taken. Happy people tend to be less vocal about their jackets than are unhappy ones. And I have no doubt that there are many, many happy repro owners out there. Indeed, since I have known you, I've never known you to complain about any of your jackets.

But we both know people who constantly purchase and sell reproduction A-2s (and other kinds of flight jackets) in an effort to find "that perfect one". They compulse over their jacket's details endlessly, as if the purpose of their quest could be found in the pocket-flap shape of Eastman's next A-2 offering. They post comparasion photos of their reproduction jackets side-by-side with originals and then gripe about the differences. They purchase NOS hardware to be placed on their repro jackets--as if that could somehow impart reality on those brand new jackets. I just think that what they are looking for can't be reproduced. And I think that many of those folks would be much happier with an original.

But, then again, maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps like some jacket-loving Diogenes, they are each doomed to wander the internet for eternity---forever seeking an honest, authentic reproduction.

Atticus

 

[Atticus Finch]

...over at the VLJ board....Many jacketeers are nostalgiacs, their clothesways running to denim, sweats, and workshirts.

Hi Fletch,

Sometimes when I'm in court, I have to wear a tie with my sweatshirt.

Atticus

 

[greyhound68]

I am getting a clone of my original Doniger. It is a very wearable jacket as are my other three originals. But wearing an original around everyday makes me a bit nervous. With the clone from Goodwear I can wear my fav jacket and not be nervous about messing it up. Looking at what Goodwear did with the Doniger repros I am very impressed. My Bronco Goodwear is as good as my original Bronco was. So, I guess my point is repros are not bad to wear everyday and originals for those special events or just when you have the urge to wear it.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

"...aaaaaaand Loving iT!"

a quote from the old tv show 'get smart'...and i aM loving the thread that i feel happy to have started...

too much to write about without putting many to sleep, but a quote by the philosophical atticus really hit home:

And, of course, I think that's the problem. They are comparing their new thousand-dollar-plus repro jackets to the originals and something is missing. They can't put their finger on it, but something just isn't quite there. So they buy another, perhaps more expensive, repro from another maker only to repeat the cycle. They are blaming the details of their new reproduction jacket for their dissatisfaction, but the problem is much bigger and it isn't in the details. What they are seeking---and missing---is reality.

hit home in that with the A-2s, i really enjoy them and am a student...but my main passion in vintage is watches, which i sell on a website and (dare i brag) am considered as much an authority on vintage watches as many of you guys are on the A-2s. I have not reached this level of...i won't say fanatacism...more like respect, with A-2 jackets...but i fear (?) some day this is going to happen with me...

For now i'll save a few bux on the current-issue usaf a-2, or go with a flightsuits horsehide vs. a goodwear, but i smell the day coming...and my bank account fears it...

but again, as atticus said, for those seeking to get at the root of their interest in this stuff, it's the reality...the desire to cross time, like the 'twilight zone' tv show or something...to go back, go there...that's what keeps us coming here, in large part, i think...

thanks for the great discussion
johnny johnny

 

[KhalilSheikh]

A pleasure to see some of the VLJ folks here. I collect / wear vintage leather jackets, but when it comes to A-2s, I always seem to be stuck in a funk. I'm lucky enough to own several original decorated A-2s. They are all very wearable 'in the wild.' My problem is that I have hard time wearing the originals for reasons I explained in another thread, and I cannot wear a reproduction because it is a reproduction. I have owned / handled every respected maker, with the exception of Good Wear (but that may change soon). I've sold off every reproduction shortly after purchase because the mere fact that it's a reproduction bugs me...and these jackets fitted me perfectly. All mental, and a wasteful journey. It seems the only A-2 I am mentally comfortable wearing, even though shoddy in comparison to the reproductions / originals, are the recent issue Saddlery / Cooper A-2s. Those I can wear because they are original in their own way. The vintage A-2s will just stay on display.

 

[Edward]

Mazeta, maybe that's what it comes down to: style vs originality. Interestingly, yet again this debate mirrors something I see in the guitar world all the time. Some of us prefer the genuine, fifties-period correct features of a Japanese copy of a Les Paul - or the genuine forties period cut of a reproduction A2 - while others can't accept the idea of a Les Paul type guitar without the "Gibson" brand, in the same way that maybe they can't get their heads around an A2 that is not a genuine military issue. Nothing wrong with either approach in itself, just different things work for different folks, and we all have different ideas of "authentic" / "real." To me the A2s Aero etc make are what the USAF should be issuing these days, but aren't, preferring lesser, baggy garments. To others, because it's not military issue the A2 etc is not a "real" A2. It's all perspective.

FWIW, I'm halfway tempted by the idea of a genuine Vietnam era G1.... I see those shift on eBay fairly regularly for very little compared to the price of an original WW2 era A2, and they seem from what I can see in the photos to still have the trimmer WW2 era fit(?). Somehow, I don't think I'd be as concerned about wearing out an original G1 like that either. Hmmnn....

 

[davyjones007]

Wow! Alot of valid points made. Repro-vs-Real. With so many different contracts and makers, each with thier own slight variations within, what is the difference between repro's and the real deal? Other than the age of the hide, I don't see it. I own an USA goat A-2. I like it alot. I am about to order one of Good Wear's A-2's next. Why? Because I want a good looking HH A-2. I like the ability to have it tailored to me and not some generic spec size. I would be willing to pay a little more for that. With a size 48 chest, an original for ware is just not an option. Would I put an original on and go outside if I could...No, probably not. Would I put on display...No. It should be worn, not gawked at. So I will always be a repro guy. But I'm cool with that.