How can you tell a bow ties era?

[Shinobichi]

First , I apologize in putting this article here, after I finished I forgot I was in classifieds! I tried to remove it to start again but didn't work.

I don't know how to fix this so if anyone can show me I would really appreciate this!

Hi all ...anyone have any info on what evidence to look for in a certain era in a bow tie? In other words how do you know it's a 1920's,30's, 40's 50's, etc. bow tie?

A lot of sellers say a lot of the same things like : " Been selling vintage for 30 years "

However, objectively speaking, this does not make a seller immune to mistakes or does this give them a certificate in being experts in assessing a vintage item.

We know nothing of the sellers skill in assessing an item just know they have experience in selling for 30 years!

Even selling vintage clothing for 30 years doesn't make a person automatically KNOWLEDGEABLE in history of clothing. That takes study. They might not even know a lot or anything at all about vintage clothing.

And EVEN if they have the skill, it's possible that they can make a mistake still if they rely on guess work.

Vice versa, a person might be very knowledgeable about vintage clothing yet have little or no experience in selling, as selling is a different skill altogether.

A seller or collector has to show objective evidence , ie. certain materials used in that era, fonts, companies, styles, etc. or KNOW specifically that it was purchased by a person who lived in that era. ie. grandparents still alive bought the item at that era.


I sold a pair of really nice vintage lamps once, and one of the evidences I used was that the person who originally purchased it was still alive and remembered purchasing it with her husband.

Finding a vintage item with a group of 1920's items doesn't prove that the item is a 1920's item either. It just proves that the item was left with a group of 1920's items.

It's like finding a 2012 made in China reproduction 1920's item with a group of real vintage 1920's items and say " This is from the 1920's because it was found with other truly vintage 1920's items."

How many times have we heard this, " It was in a chest that held other 1920s items."

So, somebody in time and space threw it in there for whatever reason, maybe even thinking it was part of that collection of clothes, but this doesn't make it automatically a true vintage 1920's item!

Walking into a Chinese restaurant doesn't make you Chinese!

Humility, is the best way to handle a situation. There's too much high headedness out there, it's best to just acknowledge:

" In this case, it's hard to tell , bust based on the evidence shown, it is beyond reasonable doubt that this is from the 1920's."

Anyways, all info on how can you tell a bow ties era, will be appreciated!


There is an article on line about how to buy a vintage bow tie published by ebay, but that article didn't say anything at all just a lot of talk on how to wear a bow tie. Should've just named it "How to wear a vintage bow tie".

Thanks all!

 

[Shinobichi]

Hi all ...anyone have any info on what evidence to look for in a certain era in a bow tie? In other words how do you know it's a 1920's,30's, 40's 50's, etc. bow tie?

A lot of sellers say a lot of the same things like : " Been selling vintage for 30 years "

However, objectively speaking, this does not make a seller immune to mistakes or does this give them a certificate in being experts in assessing a vintage item.

We know nothing of the sellers skill in assessing an item just know they have experience in selling for 30 years!

Even selling vintage clothing for 30 years doesn't make a person automatically KNOWLEDGEABLE in history of clothing. That takes study. They might not even know a lot or anything at all about vintage clothing.

And EVEN if they have the skill, it's possible that they can make a mistake still if they rely on guess work.

Vice versa, a person might be very knowledgeable about vintage clothing yet have little or no experience in selling, as selling is a different skill altogether.

A seller or collector has to show objective evidence , ie. certain materials used in that era, fonts, companies, styles, etc. or KNOW specifically that it was purchased by a person who lived in that era. ie. grandparents still alive bought the item at that era.


I sold a pair of really nice vintage lamps once, and one of the evidences I used was that the person who originally purchased it was still alive and remembered purchasing it with her husband.

Finding a vintage item with a group of 1920's items doesn't prove that the item is a 1920's item either. It just proves that the item was left with a group of 1920's items.

It's like finding a 2012 made in China reproduction 1920's item with a group of real vintage 1920's items and say " This is from the 1920's because it was found with other truly vintage 1920's items."

How many times have we heard this, " It was in a chest that held other 1920s items."

So, somebody in time and space threw it in there for whatever reason, maybe even thinking it was part of that collection of clothes, but this doesn't make it automatically a true vintage 1920's item!

Walking into a Chinese restaurant doesn't make you Chinese!

Humility, is the best way to handle a situation. There's too much high headedness out there, it's best to just acknowledge:

" In this case, it's hard to tell , bust based on the evidence shown, it is beyond reasonable doubt that this is from the 1920's."

Anyways, all info on how can you tell a bow ties era, will be appreciated!


There is an article on line about how to buy a vintage bow tie published by ebay, but that article didn't say anything at all just a lot of talk on how to wear a bow tie. Should've just named it "How to wear a vintage bow tie".

Thanks all!

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

You're right. They are quite hard to date. Of course if they have a label there is more evidence. Some pattern are rather typical for an era too. So I think I would recognize a typical bold 40s/50s pattern but not a tamer more conservative one. The slim shape of bowties later in the fifties is also recognizable. But something like a plaid bowtie in a medium size? I couldn't tell.

I would like to know when the T shaped hooks instead of the other buckle first appeared. Seems to be later?

 

[The Good]

Bow ties are still difficult for me to accurately date, as well. I realize that these below are supposed to be clip-on bow ties, but I could not pass these up. There are nice designs. Are these really 1920s bow ties, or have I bought something more new than I expected?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121371354404

 

[Mountain Man]

The shape, width, material and labeling are generally good indicators. The brands like Wembly, Cardinal, Adjust-o-Tie, Botany, to name a few - produced quite a few bow ties in the Golden Age...and also during the declining years. A good, moderate width usually made in silk, rayon, or fine wool, could have been made 20's thru early 50's. The really narrow, square-ended ones were generally mid-50's thru mid 60's and the really insanely wide ones were popular in the 70's. The older ones could have square ends or diamond ends - don't know much about the ones that predate the 20's. I am sure there are some true experts out there would could provide some dating from the manner of adjustment, etc....Ralph Lauren and some similar designers reintroduced the diamond ends in the late 80's and to the present - Brooks Brothers has generally kept wiht the square ended, butterfly shape - most modern bow ties that are commercially available tend to be made of repp or printed silk. Once you see a few of the vintage labels you will see that they are hard to mistake and the modern labels don't look like them at all. Will try to post a few pics when I get a chance....

 

[Shinobichi]

Thanks mountain man! I really appreciate this. Since you know all this , I'm looking for signs of a 1930's ( coz I love that era...hahaha) clip on bow tie.

Any would benefit all of us.....especially me!


Thanks again! Looking forward to your pics when you get a chance!

Shinobichi

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

I think these have the shape which was popular in the fifties. The pattern are neutral but don't look very twenties.

 

[The Good]

I think these have the shape which was popular in the fifties. The pattern are neutral but don't look very twenties.

I thought that they looked 1950s, as well. That decade also had good looking bow ties made. However, the patterns on these seem quite minimalist, and ambiguous enough through my eyes to look older. Buying vintage clothing is always a learning experience for me, in some ways.

 

[Fastuni]

Studying period illustrations and photos is always a good way.

Those ebay-linked bow ties are certainly not 1920s. The narrow form was popular in the late 1930's and again in the 1950's-60's.
I lean towards 50's on these... mostly because of the type of small-figure patterns (pepita and light colors).

 

[Quetzal]

There are some clues to date Bow-Ties, just as there are clues to date Four-In-Hands and Windsors. As others have already said, look for clues in the brands and the neck size (small, 13"-size necks are obviously vintage). Feel the fabric; like FiHs and Ws, vintage ties are generally thinner, softer, and somewhat more floppy than contemporary bows. Pre-mid-1950s bows were small, but proportionately wide in the same sense as vintage knotted ties have a triangular taper and are not just wide rectangles like today's. Examine the color and shape as it's untied; 1930s and older ties look somewhat like two semi-circles put together, with typical woven silk patterns of the era. Diamond-Point ties (the oldest form) were common from the mid-1930s to the mid-1950s, and these have the more recognizable "wild", "cartoonish" and "creative" printed or painted patterns found on fellow knot ties, in rayons, acetates, and silks, up until the 1970s, give-or-take. The more recognizable "butterfly" shape was also common throughout both periods, with the "bat-wing" still in it's infancy, but not non-existent. As the 1950s progressed and the Windsor knot began to dominate, bow-ties became narrower (some under 1"!), rectangular, and more "clip-on" in appearance to match the narrowing lapels, shirt collars, and brims. Then, beginning in the 1970s (maybe later '60s?) they became wide with a very strange, asymmetrical shape, and proper "ties" became even more scarce, being regarded as "fake", "childish", and "costume", like hats. In the 1980s, with a resurgence of classic menswear (though mostly in the workforce), bows made a "comeback", unfortunately as novelties and as pre-tied, paisley, atrocities, but some brave men chose to stick to "real" ties with conservative patterns like foulards, polka dots, and stripes, even in the traditional batwing, butterfly, and diamond-point cut. These 1980s-Dot.com age ties can feel and look very much like vintage ties, which is why it is important to check the label and the metal adjustment strap. The common, wide bows of today have a cut that has unfortunately remained unchanged since the 1990s.

Essentially, diagnose vintage and compare with modern, and you can tell the difference in a heartbeat. You can even tell this with clip-ons and pre-tieds, as they have existed since the turn-of-the-last-century.

-Quetzal

P.S. Those ties from the eBay link are definitely 1950s-1960s clip-ons.

 

[Shinobichi]

Bow ties are still difficult for me to accurately date, as well. I realize that these below are supposed to be clip-on bow ties, but I could not pass these up. There are nice designs. Are these really 1920s bow ties, or have I bought something more new than I expected?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121371354404

Nice bows ....hard to say. Most people online selling these widths say they are 1950s.

This brings me back to my question, how to tell.

Guess at the end every case must be looked at separately by it's own evidences.

It seems like everyone says these skinny bow ties are 1950's , but I'm wondering if it's a situation of the "blind leading the blind".

A lot of sellers usually answer my questions with," I saw someone else listed it as such an era so I did the same coz it looks the same."

Maybe the best way is to really dig into the 1920-60' catalogs and compare them all side by side and build a hypothesis from that.

Maybe you do have original 1920's ones. Anyways , they're vintage and good looking.


Romans 10:13

 

[Shinobichi]

I agree with flat foot floey.

 

[Burma Schave]

Clip-on bowties from the 1930s are virtually impossible to find. The reason is that, as men switched from detachable collars to attached ones, the old removable collar front stud became obsolete. In the 1920s (and before), pre-tied bowties had a hard, thin, diamond-shaped wire loop that the wearer would loop onto the ball of the collar front stud. The bow and the loop were attached to a pair of oval cardboard 'wings' which were to be tucked under each flap of the collar, thus stabilizing the bow.

When collar studs gave way to permanently attached collar buttons, the old 'loop and wing' system fell out of favor: I'm not sure why. They were replaced by pre-tied bowties with two adjustable hook-and-eye bands which looped around the wearer's neck. This system wasn't new, though: it had been around since the mid 1800s. By the 1940s, pre-tied bowties with a pair of alligator clips and no bands came to the fore: they first appeared in the '20s, but didn't really succeed in the market until World War II. Not surprisingly, engineers and machinists favored them.

 

[Shinobichi]

Thanks bro for the info! Great stuff Burma!

 

[The Good]

Clip-on bowties from the 1930s are virtually impossible to find. The reason is that, as men switched from detachable collars to attached ones, the old removable collar front stud became obsolete. In the 1920s (and before), pre-tied bowties had a hard, thin, diamond-shaped wire loop that the wearer would loop onto the ball of the collar front stud. The bow and the loop were attached to a pair of oval cardboard 'wings' which were to be tucked under each flap of the collar, thus stabilizing the bow.

When collar studs gave way to permanently attached collar buttons, the old 'loop and wing' system fell out of favor: I'm not sure why. They were replaced by pre-tied bowties with two adjustable hook-and-eye bands which looped around the wearer's neck. This system wasn't new, though: it had been around since the mid 1800s. By the 1940s, pre-tied bowties with a pair of alligator clips and no bands came to the fore: they first appeared in the '20s, but didn't really succeed in the market until World War II. Not surprisingly, engineers and machinists favored them.

Thank you for this useful information. I have had trouble with where to start, but that makes sense.

 

[DamianM]

the 1920s bowtie he described with the Shield back as they call them in the books

When this isn't present and it is a self tie bow Other then the hardware that gives it away you must look at the cloth used.
In the teens you got a lot of watercolor silks in neckties and bow ties alike.
As you can see above -The 1920s had brighter colors on silks, brocades, and rayon's. then there where Jazz bows that used the same shield back but where smaller in comparison

 

[DamianM]

By the late 20s you got these

 

[Shinobichi]

By the late 20s you got these

Wow! Thanks for the pics Damian! Great info too!Can you do a pic of 1930's clip ons and 1940's ,1950's ones side by side?

Thanks!