Horween USA and Aero Leather Joint Statement

[cordwangler]

Check previous posts!

See H Johnson's very interesting post from 2009 on identifying horse/cow. It's at "03.45 AM". It comes in a conversation on different hides' porosity and water-resistant properties.

A lot of questions have been answered in FL history. It really is worth checking. Use an internet search engine, they're really very useful on occasions like these.

See my earlier post on same subject, with ref to other thread.

This is why this thread is redundant, except for the informative first post.

 

[eClairvaux]

See H Johnson's very interesting post from 2009 on identifying horse/cow. It's at "03.45 AM". It comes in a conversation on different hides' porosity and water-resistant properties.

A lot of questions have been answered in FL history. It really is worth checking. Use an internet search engine, they're really very useful on occasions like these.

See my earlier post on same subject, with ref to other thread.

This is why this thread is redundant, except for the informative first post.

I remember that thread well and it was quite informative, though I don't think it is as much about identifying leather types, but rather discussing the question of functional advantages of each type, such as waterproofness.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Now we're back to debating HH and steer similarities/differences. The idea or theory of some that it can't be done except by DNA tests. Yet Aero announces otherwise. That some of their steer was sold as FQHH. Do you actually think that they are running DNA tests on each hide that they sell?..and can't really tell the difference from your photos or jackets? If so..then why did Aero make an annoucement to 'look at' customers jackets to decide. They put it upon themselves to expertly do this. They have never asked for customers to send all jackets back for DNA tests.
If you think it takes DNA since the hides surely are that similar..then why have any concerns about which hide you actually have? ...And why on earth did Aero even make an annoucement.
'Alot of questions have been answered in FL history'. Perhaps so...but in this case..Aero seems to disagree...no matter how elaborately H Johnson presented his remarks. So who's the experts? Aero must think that they are. Enough to request 'photos' in order to inform customers about the hide!
As a side note..in my view..tighter pores(HH)make for better water resistance..plus certain techniques of adding fats and oils during tanning as well...but then I'm no expert. Or even attempting to make myself appear as one.
HD

 

[wdw]

I'm definitely repeating myself, but I reckon weight is the simplest guide. A few weights were given earlier which indicates that around 2.5kg or 5.5lbs is a reasonable guide for an FQHH 42" short Half Belt. We saw crazy numbers about 50% higher which were confirmed by Holly as steer.

 

[Die-Motte]

I must admit that I wouldn`t ever have recognized fussel`s LHB as a steerhide jacket by just looking at the photos! The grain on my FQHH halfbelt is similar in many areas.
So I agree that the weight is the only thing that can help us here!

For comparision:
Stuart , size 38, cotton lining: 2,3 kg
Halfbelt, size 38 long, Alpaca lining: 2,9 kg

Both jackets are comfirmed by Holly as most likely made of horsehide!


Regards Verena

 

[Lungomare]

I'm definitely repeating myself, but I reckon weight is the simplest guide. A few weights were given earlier which indicates that around 2.5kg or 5.5lbs is a reasonable guide for an FQHH 42" short Half Belt. We saw crazy numbers about 50% higher which were confirmed by Holly as steer.

With all the caution necessary I'd like to say that we don't know if there wasn't also normal weight steerhide sold for front quarter horsehide. In this case the weight won't differ as much as with heavy steer.

To get sure the jackets are to be "examined" by the experts of Aero. In future - I am sure - this will be no more question. I am convinced that Holly, Ken and the rest of the staff are running a very good job now (which is the main reason why I'll stay a customer of Aero).

Kind regards,

Johannes

 

[caffeinated]

Got my reply from Holly today. My LHB labeled FQHH is steerhide. I'm not unfamiliar with either hide, as I spent many years making leather goods such as chaps, saddlebags and tooled leather gear. Once it's tanned, dyed and stitched together, pretty hard to tell the difference, but I always felt something was "off," especially the weight. I know steerhide is great leather, so I don't need to hear the benefits. I ordered horsehide, paid for horse, and waited over 8 months for horse, so I'm going through the replacement process. It will be interesting to see how long it takes, if it will cost me a dime either way (hopefully not, I paid in good faith once already), and if my second order without Mark Moye as the middleman will be more successful. The LHB I got is not a great fit by any means, so I've always wondered if he fudged up my detailed measurements, or if it was on the other end. Since I'm a big fella and the misfit was on the big side, I was going to live with it, as big guys are usually shorted on material, not given extra. I'll post details on the process, if anyone is interested. Enough rambling. I'm not happy I waited so long and paid so much for the wrong jacket, (or that I'll miss yet another short SoCal winter in the process) but I am impressed with Aero's handling of this matter so far. Frank

Frank, may I ask when your jacket was made?

Thanks.

 

[Unwissender]

@Frussel, how heavy is your jacket? I have a longer-LHB Uk size 50. it weighs 3.8 kg

Greetings.

....with Cotton-Linning

 

[ForestForTheTrees]

Do you actually think that they are running DNA tests on each hide that they sell?..and can't really tell the difference from your photos or jackets? If so..then why did Aero make an annoucement to 'look at' customers jackets to decide. They put it upon themselves to expertly do this. They have never asked for customers to send all jackets back for DNA tests.
If you think it takes DNA since the hides surely are that similar..then why have any concerns about which hide you actually have? ...And why on earth did Aero even make an annoucement.

That is why this is all so puzzling to me. I can't believe that only one person, within a company that works with the various hides on a daily basis over the course of many years, is able to make such distinctions and the others are not. As far as the announcement is concerned, perhaps Aero's hand was forced by someone outside of the company, and they were left with no choice but to make an announcement. Now they are "inspecting" the jackets and making a decision one way or the other and it seems like they're doing the right thing. But if it were really as easy as looking at a photo, do you really think only one guy at Aero could do so and not others who have worked with the hides for many years? That just doesn't add up in my mind.

 

[Justhandguns]

That is why this is all so puzzling to me. I can't believe that only one person, within a company that works with the various hides on a daily basis over the course of many years, is able to make such distinctions and the others are not. As far as the announcement is concerned, perhaps Aero's hand was forced by someone outside of the company, and they were left with no choice but to make an announcement. Now they are "inspecting" the jackets and making a decision one way or the other and it seems like they're doing the right thing. But if it were really as easy as looking at a photo, do you really think only one guy at Aero could do so and not others who have worked with the hides for many years? That just doesn't add up in my mind.

It is likely to be Horween, they would easily gain a bad reputation, among the consumers and their competitors, that they may be providing inferior or incorrect hides if they do not force Aero to issue a joint statment. For checking the hides on their already sold jackets, if they can trace down the ordering time and the batches, it is not very difficult to determine what sort of leathers they have used. For a company at that scale, there must be some kind of logistics documentations for material supplies. On my Aero jackets, there is always the maker's name on the tag as well.

 

[Sloan1874]

It is likely to be Horween, they would easily gain a bad reputation, among the consumers and their competitors, that they may be providing inferior or incorrect hides if they do not force Aero to issue a joint statment. For checking the hides on their already sold jackets, if they can trace down the ordering time and the batches, it is not very difficult to determine what sort of leathers they have used. For a company at that scale, there must be some kind of logistics documentations for material supplies. On my Aero jackets, there is always the maker's name on the tag as well.

Holly has already said that the problem was discovered in-house, and they then went to Horween. I suppose this is what happens with a very long thread: salient facts get lost in the mix of comments and questions.

 

[Carrie @ Insurrection]

Insurrection is of the same opinion of Skip Horween and Ken Calder. It isn't that chrome-tanned horsehide is superior to chrome-tanned steerhide; it's just that they're a bit different (mostly in terms of weight and thickness). When it comes to cost (and this has been stated many times in this thread), the chrome-tanned steerhide is actually MORE expensive per square foot than the chrome-tanned horsehide. However, it's much easier to cut from steerhide than FQHH due to the respective sizes of the hides (again, this has been stated many times in this thread).

While Insurrection is still ordering a lot of horsehide jackets for our Aero customers, we're going to be carrying the chrome-tanned steerhide for our off-the-rack Aero jackets. The Horween steerhide, in our opinion, is absolutely amazing!

For customers in the US, come on in and see the difference. We've got both chrome-tanned Horween steerhide and chrome-tanned Horween horsehide on the floor. Through this whole ordeal, we've been in constant contact with both Ken and Skip. If you have any questions regarding the differences for an order you'd like to place, we're glad to assist.

 

[caffeinated]

Insurrection is of the same opinion of Skip Horween and Ken Calder. It isn't that chrome-tanned horsehide is superior to chrome-tanned steerhide; it's just that they're a bit different (mostly in terms of weight and thickness). When it comes to cost (and this has been stated many times in this thread), the chrome-tanned steerhide is actually MORE expensive per square foot than the chrome-tanned horsehide. However, it's much easier to cut from steerhide than FQHH due to the respective sizes of the hides (again, this has been stated many times in this thread).

While Insurrection is still ordering a lot of horsehide jackets for our Aero customers, we're going to be carrying the chrome-tanned steerhide for our off-the-rack Aero jackets. The Horween steerhide, in our opinion, is absolutely amazing!

For customers in the US, come on in and see the difference. We've got both chrome-tanned Horween steerhide and chrome-tanned Horween horsehide on the floor. Through this whole ordeal, we've been in constant contact with both Ken and Skip. If you have any questions regarding the differences for an order you'd like to place, we're glad to assist.

So can you guys tell the difference by looking at the hide?

 

[Carrie @ Insurrection]

So can you guys tell the difference by looking at the hide?

Once we touch it, we can definitely tell what it is... Like many have stated on this thread, the FQHH is significantly thinner/lighter and seems, in most all cases, to have a different "feel"... For us, obviously not having the decades of experience like Ken or Skip, we can't tell the difference through a photo... Remember, both are chrome-tanned so they look incredibly similar...! It's really the "feel" and the "body" of the jacket that is important when making hide selection between Horween chrome-tanned FQHH and Horween chrome-tanned steerhide...

 

[dr.velociraptor]

Holly has already said that the problem was discovered in-house, and they then went to Horween. I suppose this is what happens with a very long thread: salient facts get lost in the mix of comments and questions.

There is a lot that happened between Aero calling Horween about a problem they found in house, and Aero and Horween making a joint public announcement about it. We'll never know the details so we can't say whether Aero insisted on a public announcement or Horween.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

That is why this is all so puzzling to me. I can't believe that only one person, within a company that works with the various hides on a daily basis over the course of many years, is able to make such distinctions and the others are not. As far as the announcement is concerned, perhaps Aero's hand was forced by someone outside of the company, and they were left with no choice but to make an announcement. Now they are "inspecting" the jackets and making a decision one way or the other and it seems like they're doing the right thing. But if it were really as easy as looking at a photo, do you really think only one guy at Aero could do so and not others who have worked with the hides for many years? That just doesn't add up in my mind.

**I can't believe that only one person, within a company that works with the various hides on a daily basis over the course of many years, is able to make such distinctions and the others are not.**

Who ever said this?? It was 'announced' that others within Aero 'could' tell the difference..but decided to sell steer as HH anyway(or go along with it). That seems to be the whole point of the annnoucement along with other post from Aero. It also 'seems' that Aero(after Ken coming out of retirement for other inconsistencies)was alerted to the problem by returned jackets that were labled HH..but actually consisted of steer. Now the spokesman Ken(founder)..and Daughter(Holly) are up to their elbows expertly informing concerned customers of exactly what they have.
I swear...it's amazing what some that are reading this thread can still come up with. Ten pages from now it will probably be even worse.
HD

 

[John Lever]

Having spoken on the phone to Ken and his wife Lydia I can tell everyone that they are 100% open in this matter and are working around the clock to solve the problem.

 

[Edward]

There is a lot that happened between Aero calling Horween about a problem they found in house, and Aero and Horween making a joint public announcement about it. We'll never know the details so we can't say whether Aero insisted on a public announcement or Horween.

I've seen no reason to doubt what we've been told either. Lest anyone be tempted to draw any inferences from the delay between discovery and the announcement in the op, please bear in mind that we have an extremely robust libel law in the UK, making it a huge mistake for a company to make any such announcement they cannot evidence to the hilt, irrespective of whether they know it to be true. The burden ofcproof here is (rightly) on the person making the claim. Professionally speaking, I would not have advised Aero to do any different.

 

[caffeinated]

Once we touch it, we can definitely tell what it is... Like many have stated on this thread, the FQHH is significantly thinner/lighter and seems, in most all cases, to have a different "feel"... For us, obviously not having the decades of experience like Ken or Skip, we can't tell the difference through a photo... Remember, both are chrome-tanned so they look incredibly similar...! It's really the "feel" and the "body" of the jacket that is important when making hide selection between Horween chrome-tanned FQHH and Horween chrome-tanned steerhide...

I bought an Aero Cafe Racer from you guys in April of 2011. Do you have any concerns about these jackets being mixed hides or being steer when they are labled horse? This being my first and only horse-hide jacket I have no frame of reference and am completely dependent on the knowledge of experts.

I will be visiting Seattle in late December. I'll be stopping by to shop and discuss making a change to the zipper length on the jacket. Looking forward to seeing the shop!

 

[Carrie @ Insurrection]

I bought an Aero Cafe Racer from you guys in April of 2011. Do you have any concerns about these jackets being mixed hides or being steer when they are labled horse? This being my first and only horse-hide jacket I have no frame of reference and am completely dependent on the knowledge of experts.

I will be visiting Seattle in late December. I'll be stopping by to shop and discuss making a change to the zipper length on the jacket. Looking forward to seeing the shop!

That's great that you'll be in Seattle for a visit! Bring your jacket and we can tell ya if it's steerhide or horsehide...

As far as your zipper goes, we'll be glad to change the length (longer or shorter) and reinstall it so that it's just the way you want it!