Histories of hat styles

[HanauMan]

The kind of hat worn in the Goethe painting can be traced back at least another century and a half. Many Dutch paintings of the early 17th century onwards show the forerunner of these hats and, indeed, many self portraits by Dutch artist show them wearing these. So I would guess that the wearing of these hats by poets is just a reflection of wearing something identified as being of an artistic nature.

 

[Nathaniel Finley]

In the portrait of Goethe in Italy there are all the neoclassical styles (J.H.W. Tischbein converted on this side around the around 1783) that represent the Grand Tour. From the background with the "Roman Capriccio" to Goethe's clothing style, including the hat.
Extremely useful, indeed fundamental, accessory for long-term trips that often provided long walking trails.
We also pay close attention to Goethe's wish to be represented as a "new" icon in the landscape of the tourists in Italy, but also the consecration of the Grand Tour as an indispensable and initiatory rite for a generation of ancient cultures followers.
He, one of the first "modern" writers, is represented in a very different way from his contemporary fellow poets and writers of time.
I believe the origin of the "poet" hat is an English way of interpreting the hat outside the traditional patterns of the island where more than everyone in Europe has remained firmly in the tradition of wearing formal hats (bowlers and top hats) to the present day .
Is it perhaps a matter of fashion?

I agree with a lot of this, although I don't think Goethe initiated the "Grand Tour" but rather was taking part in an aristocratic tradition of the classical period.

Is this a matter of fashion? I think I understand what you mean, but even if it is just "fashion" the questions remain, Why do they call it "the Poet?" Why market it as such? Why this particular style? And now, after Karl's question, there is yet another very important one: When was it first called that?

 

[Nathaniel Finley]

The kind of hat worn in the Goethe painting can be traced back at least another century and a half. Many Dutch paintings of the early 17th century onwards show the forerunner of these hats and, indeed, many self portraits by Dutch artist show them wearing these. So I would guess that the wearing of these hats by poets is just a reflection of wearing something identified as being of an artistic nature.

Yes, I agree the Dutch Golden Age sees an aweful lot of wide-brimmed, high-crowned hats. Here are just two quick examples:

However, it's a long way from 17th Century Holland to Goethe's Grand Tour of Italy, let alone late-Victorian England. How do we get there?

 

[HanauMan]

Not really. Both Britain and Holland were Protestant countries and, despite the Dutch Wars, the two nations were involved both economically (trade) and politically (especially after the Glorious Revolution). Thus the fashion passed from Holland to Britain where it was absorbed for wear, replacing the older Tricorn & wig fashion. By the mid 1700s the Enlightenment began in northern, Protestant countries and the style travelled with the upper classes on their continental 'Grand Tours'. A big part of the Enlightenment was artistic advancement and the rise of pastoral poetry. It just follows on from there. The style is adapted by the poor as a suitable hat for countryside work. The poets deem themselves as being 'of the people' and wear 'peasant' style clothing, including the hats (remember, the pastoral poetry). This continues thru-out the 19th century as both artists and writers adapt the style as a badge of a bohemian identity.

 

[KarlCrow]

i suppose if one had access to adverts in newspapers or publications where HJ placed adverts... if they placed adverts.

wilde was famous for declaring his genius before writing much, and presumably dressed accordingly, but according to whose expectations? His? based on behemianism? Public expectations?

 

[mayserwegener]

This is a great question. Here's what Herbert Johnson says on their website:

Our classic oldest hat shape was the Herbert Johnson wide brim fur felt hat called 'The Poet' with its tall crown and this was the style chosen. The 'Poet' had been made by Herbert Johnson since the 1890's and has always been deemed ageless. The hat was modified for the character Indiana Jones in a number of ways. and the perfect shade of brown called sable was chosen.

http://www.swaineadeneybrigg.com/store/herbert-johnson/fedora-hats/the-poet-hat

To me, this says that the hat has been made by Hebert Johnson AND called "the Poet" since the 1890s, but that last bit is more implicated than explicated. Could it be it was produced first and named later? This seems like a very important question that I have no idea how to answer!

As I mentioned you need to look through copies of "The Hatters Gazette" from 1890 up to WWII. This is where you will find actual information from Hebert Johnson. You might also be able to track down H.J. catalogs from the time period (will be very difficult to find). I don't trust newspaper advertisements from retail outlets or second hand information (even from the horse's mouth).

The most popular Soft Felt Dress Hat Style / Form from the 1890s up to the 1920s were Homburg like Soft Felt Hats. The Form/Style came from Continental Europe.

 

[Nathaniel Finley]

Not really. Both Britain and Holland were Protestant countries and, despite the Dutch Wars, the two nations were involved both economically (trade) and politically (especially after the Glorious Revolution). Thus the fashion passed from Holland to Britain where it was absorbed for wear, replacing the older Tricorn & wig fashion. By the mid 1700s the Enlightenment began in northern, Protestant countries and the style travelled with the upper classes on their continental 'Grand Tours'. A big part of the Enlightenment was artistic advancement and the rise of pastoral poetry. It just follows on from there. The style is adapted by the poor as a suitable hat for countryside work. The poets deem themselves as being 'of the people' and wear 'peasant' style clothing, including the hats (remember, the pastoral poetry). This continues thru-out the 19th century as both artists and writers adapt the style as a badge of a bohemian identity.

This is a really interesting idea, except that the style doesn't seem to have passed from Holland to England replacing the wig and tricorn at the Glorious Revolution. To believe portrait artists of the time, the wig still appears to be firmly entrenched among English aristocrats when George I, a German, takes the throne in 1714, and remains in place for the next century, as do small-brimmed and tricorn-style hats. Don't forget also that the English and Dutch had a renewed rivalry at the end of the 18th Century. In short, the relationship between the two countries after the Glorious Revolution isn't as smooth to me as your narrative suggests. Was there a window of opportunity for a wide-brimmed hat to make an appearance? I suppose so, but I personally haven't seen any evidence of it. (As a side note, I'm pretty sure the cavalier's hat was popular in England both before and after the Civil War, so it's not as if the English needed the Dutch to introduce a wide-brimmed hat to them).

Besides that, I'm not sure pastoral poetry means hobknobbing with the peasants. That didn't happen until Wordsworth and the Romantics. Neoclassical poetry of the 18th Century was pretty darn formalistic and hoity-toity if I remember right. So the idea that the poetic aristocrats gave the wide-brimmed hat to the commoners pings my credibility radar.

I absolutely see some similarities between the hats Dutch aristocrats were wearing in the Golden Age and the hats that English poets appear to be wearing in the age of Victoria, but that could be total coincidence. The connection lines just aren't there for me yet - although is it any harder to believe than Goethe's painting as an inspiration? Maybe not.

 

[Nathaniel Finley]

As I mentioned you need to look through copies of "The Hatters Gazette" from 1890 up to WWII. This is where you will find actual information from Hebert Johnson. You might also be able to track down H.J. catalogs from the time period (will be very difficult to find). I don't trust newspaper advertisements from retail outlets or second hand information (even from the horse's mouth).

The most popular Soft Felt Dress Hat Style / Form from the 1890s up to the 1920s were Homburg like Soft Felt Hats. The Form/Style came from Continental Europe.

Sorry, I should clarify what I meant: I live in Southeast Asia. I have no idea what the chances of me getting my hands on any Hatters Gazettes are. But I would LOVE to, and am really thankful for that tip. Maybe I will contact the Library of Congress and find out if they can scan some old magazines and email them to me. I might try to that this week. You did say they have copies of the old gazettes, right?

 

[Nathaniel Finley]

i suppose if one had access to adverts in newspapers or publications where HJ placed adverts... if they placed adverts.

wilde was famous for declaring his genius before writing much, and presumably dressed accordingly, but according to whose expectations? His? based on behemianism? Public expectations?

Wilde was the prophet of the English Aesthetic Movement, which had deep roots in France, Austria and elsewhere. I assume his fashion sensibility was in line with those expectations to which he added his own spice, but I haven't yet seen any solid evidence that the Aesthetics or their Continental cousins the Symbolists were particularly known for wide-brimmed hats. Austrian Velours might be a piece of that puzzle though, but I'm not versed enough in that history to even spell the name right!

 

[KarlCrow]

of course the 1890s is around the same time as 'fedora' the play featured sarah bernhardt in a floppy hat in 1882, and the bohemian novel 'trilby' in '94, the stage production featuring a shorter brimmed hat so presumably hats did have names or named styles, or did collect such monikers

 

[HanauMan]

This is a really interesting idea, except that the style doesn't seem to have passed from Holland to England replacing the wig and tricorn at the Glorious Revolution. To believe portrait artists of the time, the wig still appears to be firmly entrenched among English aristocrats when George I, a German, takes the throne in 1714, and remains in place for the next century, as do small-brimmed and tricorn-style hats. Don't forget also that the English and Dutch had a renewed rivalry at the end of the 18th Century. In short, the relationship between the two countries after the Glorious Revolution isn't as smooth to me as your narrative suggests. Was there a window of opportunity for a wide-brimmed hat to make an appearance? I suppose so, but I personally haven't seen any evidence of it. (As a side note, I'm pretty sure the cavalier's hat was popular in England both before and after the Civil War, so it's not as if the English needed the Dutch to introduce a wide-brimmed hat to them).

Besides that, I'm not sure pastoral poetry means hobknobbing with the peasants. That didn't happen until Wordsworth and the Romantics. Neoclassical poetry of the 18th Century was pretty darn formalistic and hoity-toity if I remember right. So the idea that the poetic aristocrats gave the wide-brimmed hat to the commoners pings my credibility radar.

I absolutely see some similarities between the hats Dutch aristocrats were wearing in the Golden Age and the hats that English poets appear to be wearing in the age of Victoria, but that could be total coincidence. The connection lines just aren't there for me yet - although is it any harder to believe than Goethe's painting as an inspiration? Maybe not.

Sorry, I didn't imply that the Dutch hats totally replaced the Tricorn immediately . It continued to remain normal wear for some time, though by the end of its life it was mostly worn by the older members of the upper classes.. But the Dutch style began to replace the older forms gradually. The Civil War hats you mention were, in turn, influenced by France and the French court. That was one reason they were so widely ridiculed by the Parliamentarians and Puritans.

Pastoral poems were very popular in the mid to late 18th century. In fact, pastoral poetry was first written by the Greeks. They were also in evidence in England in the 16 - 17th century. They did not grow out of the Romantics nor out of the writings of 'poetic aristocats'. Robert Burns is an example of a pastoral poet. Look at his portrait, note his hat. Nothing to do with the aristocracy. They did not introduce the hat form to the 'peasants', it was already absorbed by them as a useful hat for outdoor work in the farms and fields. Not sure how you got the impression it was a top down introduction.

 

[Nathaniel Finley]

Sorry, I didn't imply that the Dutch hats totally replaced the Tricorn immediately . It continued to remain normal wear for some time, thought by the end of its life it was mostly worn by the older members of the upper classes.. But the Dutch style began to replace the older forms gradually. The Civil War hats you mention were, in turn, influenced by France and the French court. That was one reason they were so widely ridiculed by the Parliamentarians and Puritans.

Pastoral poems were very popular in the mid to late 18th century. In fact, pastoral poetry was first written by the Greeks. They were also in evidence in England in the 16 - 17th century. They did not grow out of the Romantics nor out of the writings of 'poetic aristocats'. Robert Burns is an example of a pastoral poet. Look at his portrait, note his hat. Nothing to do with the aristocracy. They did not introduce the hat form to the 'peasants', it was already absorbed by them as a useful hat for outdoor work in the farms and fields. Not sure how you got the impression it was a top down introduction.

Robert Burns is a great poet whom I know little about. I don't know how much currency he held in English society, which is my chief concern here. Your argument that Dutch style replaced older English fashion is an interesting one - can you provide some evidence of that? I don't see the argument that the Dutch wide-brimmed hats replaced English aristocratic models as one with much support, but you might change my mind with some pictorial evidence. as I discussed in the original post, short-brimmed hats were very much the fashion for gentlemen in late-Victorian England.

Pastoral poetry had its place in English literature, but it was hardly the vogue at the time HJ introduced "the Poet." I suppose it's possible that they had pastoral poets in mind when they created it, but with giant personalities like Tennyson and Wilde dominating the literary scene I can't imagine they would think it a good marketing strategy. I can't think of a single pastoral poet in England of the 19th century and certainly none that rise to the heights of Tennyson, Shelley, Byron, Browning or Wilde. When I think 19th Century English poet, these are the figures I remember and my assumption is that a smart new hat maker who has recieved words of praise from royalty would think the same. I could be dead wrong, though. When I think pastoral English poet, I think Pope and Milton, and Pope at least was definitely a wig wearing formalist.

I'm personally taking your thesis under consideration, but without pictorial evidence demonstrating primarily a shift in English fashion toward something Dutch-inspired I'm sorry to say that I fail to be convinced.

 

[HanauMan]

Don't worry, I'm not too convinced either! Just some mad ramblings on a quiet Sunday afternoon!

 

[mayserwegener]

Sorry, I should clarify what I meant: I live in Southeast Asia. I have no idea what the chances of me getting my hands on any Hatters Gazettes are. But I would LOVE to, and am really thankful for that tip. Maybe I will contact the Library of Congress and find out if they can scan some old magazines and email them to me. I might try to that this week. You did say they have copies of the old gazettes, right?

You can check with the U.S. Library of Congress. From what I can remember they are in bound copies by year. "The Hatters Gazette" was weekly or biweekly. You would need to search through many editions so this would be costly. Here are the OCLC WorldCat results for "The Hatters Gazette".

https://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=worldcat_org_all&q=The+Hatters+Gazette

http://explore.bl.uk/primo_library/...ext0)=The Hatters Gazette&dstmp=1504470558970

From my experience with old German and Austrian Stiff and Soft Felt hats you commonly see a quality distinction. You might see something generic like "Gloria" stamped on the sweatband or printed on liner. As mentioned I am highly skeptical of second hand fashion information. Show me an H.J. pre 1950 Soft or Stiff Felt Hat with "The Poet" stamped on the sweatband or printed on liner and I will be a believer (did they actually make their own hats / felt or source?). Also a pre 1950 H.J. catalog or company advertisement with the model name mentioned. Like this "1915 War Hat (Kriegshut)" from "Anton Pichler Graz, Highly Illustrated, Current Hat Prices, Autumn & Winter 1915/16" (I doubt "1915 Kriegshut" was mentioned anywhere on the hat and there is nothing unique about the hat form).

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...ler-hutfabrik-josef-pitchler-sohne/#entry1232

The English were not known for stylish Soft Felt Dress Hats. They also lacked the necessary production knowledge (colors, finishes) to match what was coming out of Continental Europe. They were great at producing black Stiff Felt Hats. Sorry for being so harsh but it's mostly true.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

although I don't think Goethe initiated the "Grand Tour" but rather was taking part in an aristocratic tradition of the classical period.

Is this a matter of fashion? I think I understand what you mean, but even if it is just "fashion" the questions remain, Why do they call it "the Poet?" Why market it as such? Why this particular style? And now, after Karl's question, there is yet another very important one: When was it first called that?

Maybe I did not explain it well but what I wrote it seems clear to me.
Goethe was not the first to complete the Grand Tour in Italy, he has been one of the many, over the years, but he is certainly the one who put in focus "the consecration of the Grand Tour as an indispensable and initiatory rite for a generation of ancient cultures (classic) followers"
The paintining is a sort of manifesto in which every elements get a meanings, the hat too, in a period of wigs, tricorn but also big and wide brimmed soft hats. Here in Italy they are often associated with street brigands
All your questions have, for me, one answer: it was fashion in a country, England, where the formal hats rule., or if you need a more modern term marketing inspired by some successful films

 

[Steve1857]

You can check with the U.S. Library of Congress. From what I can remember they are in bound copies by year. "The Hatters Gazette" was weekly or biweekly. You would need to search through many editions so this would be costly. Here are the OCLC WorldCat results for "The Hatters Gazette".

https://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=worldcat_org_all&q=The+Hatters+Gazette

From my experience with old German and Austrian Stiff and Soft Felt hats you commonly see a quality distinction. You might see something generic like "Gloria" stamped on the sweatband or printed on liner. As mentioned I am highly skeptical of second hand fashion information. Show me an H.J. pre 1950 Soft or Stiff Felt Hat with "The Poet" stamped on the sweatband or printed on liner and I will be a believer (did they actually make their own hats / felt or source?). Also a pre 1950 H.J. catalog or company advertisement with the model name mentioned. Like this "1915 War Hat (Kriegshut)" from "Anton Pichler Graz, Highly Illustrated, Current Hat Prices, Autumn & Winter 1915/16" (I doubt "1915 Kriegshut" was mentioned anywhere on the hat and there is nothing unique about the hat form).

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...ler-hutfabrik-josef-pitchler-sohne/#entry1232

The English were not known for stylish Soft Felt Dress Hats. They also lacked the necessary production knowledge (colors, finishes) to match what was coming out of Continental Europe. They were great at producing black Stiff Felt Hats. Sorry for being so harsh but it's mostly true.

I'll try not to be offended, Steve [emoji5]

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

 

[Zombie_61]

Don't worry, I'm not too convinced either! Just some mad ramblings on a quiet Sunday afternoon!

Speaking of mad ramblings, while all of this speculation is interesting and fun I'm mentally picturing Herbert Johnson sitting in his workshop refining the details on the first prototype of this hat when someone walks by, sees it, and offhandedly says, "That looks like something a poet would wear."

 

[Nathaniel Finley]

Don't worry, I'm not too convinced either! Just some mad ramblings on a quiet Sunday afternoon!

To be honest, though I know a bit about literary history I'm rather unschooled when it comes to fashion history, so I'm certainly just learning.

I do think the relationship between Dutch and English fashion is an interesting and overlooked study, since mostly I've only read about the French influences on English clothing. In the early modern period I believe Antwerp was still exuding a strong influence over all things fashion, you already mentioned the Glorious Revolution, and Charles II was reported to have spent a great deal of his exiled year's in Holland. Combine that with the literary giants form England and France who spend considerable time in Holland such as Locke and Descartes and I think you do have a recipe for some Lowland fashion impact. My main concern is not to exptrapolate that too far into the future since there were massive changes happening in England during the 18th and 19th centuries: industrialization, urbanization, the restrictions on monarchial perogratives just to name a few.

I also think the impact of pastoral poets should be taken into account, but again I'm not clear how to unwrap that package for the late Victorian era since those trends appear to have been in sharp decline by the end of the 18th Century (in England at least). But there was still a great deal of pastoral poetry being published particularly, I believe, in women's journals. Could the pastoral poets of the 17th and 18th centuries have founded long-term fashion trends among the English underclasses? Could the less-fashionable but still extant pastoral poets of the 19th Century have been of such a specific type that they were associated with certain clothing items (wide-brimmed hats, specifically?) My answer would be that these are interesting hypothese that need to be verified against evidence.

Thanks for your discussion, for sure. You have introduced me to at least some important historical phenomena that I have hitherto not granted enough attention to! The Fedora Lounge is certainly a fountain of knowledge.

Cheers.

 

[Nathaniel Finley]

Speaking of mad ramblings, while all of this speculation is interesting and fun I'm mentally picturing Herbert Johnson sitting in his workshop refining the details on the first prototype of this hat when someone walks by, sees it, and offhandedly says, "That looks like something a poet would wear."

Lol, yes, that is an interesting theory, and wouldn't it be funny if that were the case. This mystery is starting to feel like a Citizen Kane' rosebud!

 

[Zombie_61]

Lol, yes, that is an interesting theory, and wouldn't it be funny if that were the case. This mystery is starting to feel like a Citizen Kane' rosebud!

It's Occam's Razor - the simplest answer is usually the correct one.