Historical Debate Regarding the WWII

[LordBest]

Actually the swastika has a long history of usage (2500 years at least) in Western civilizations too, along with variations like the triskelion. In fact there is a rather poignant illumination from the medieval manuscript Alfonso's A Book of Games of a Christian, Jew and Muslim harmoniously playing a board game with a large swastika on the wall behind them. It is rather unfortunate that a symbol that was common accross so many cultures is now considered taboo, though perfectly understandable. I'm certainly not advocating its revival in mainstream Western culture.

The only proper use of a swastika, is by Buddhists or the like.
QUOTE]

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Yes, please. HURRY. I'm really trying to hold back.

Same here,...comments on Iraq and it's ousted leadership won't be very popular here I think, so I won't make them, just alluding to it all so that maybe others will show restraint also.
I see politics,..religion,...ALL those subjects to be avoided just looming on the horizon. :eusa_doh:
(Sitting on my hands now,...to prevent further typing,...)

 

[Chainsaw]

I'm aware of that, it's a basic building block, when untainted by politics. There's even a town in Canada called Swastika, and it pre dated the war. There's another version of the triskillion that I'm familiar with. I relate it to Martial arts.

The symbol it's self is not taboo. It's the misuse of the symbol. Just as the use of the burning cross is the states hasn't filthied the image of the cross, neither has the misuse of the swastika.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

My people too were pillaged and brutalized by a foreign conquerer years ago - my Anglo-Celtic ancestors were nearly annihilated by the Romans! Those "Italians" killed a lot of Jews in their day, then turned on the Christians. In the process they crushed more than a few other civilizations and races as well. We all tend to think of this as HISTORY - and history worth knowing. In Europe, re-enactors relive Roman battles and display Roman weapons and devices. We tend to think of this as living-history, without much judgement about who the Romans were as a people and what they did in the process of civilization and the march of history.

I say this without in any way diminishing the more recent atrocities carried out by Nazis in WWII. But a thousand years from now, it will be merely HISTORY - history about the edd and flow of human civilization.

The CAF/AZ Wing purchased and restored a (CASA) He-111 bomber that was once owned by Fascist dictator Generalissimo Francisco Franco. When the airplane was completed and made airworthy it was painted in the livery of a Luftwaffe bomber - the same type of aircraft that bombed Guernica and Warsaw and London. The tail of the aircraft was painted with national symbol of 1940's Germany - the Swastika. This airplane toured the country as a valuable piece of living history. People paid a fee to walk through the airplane and to fly in it. Now, I bring this up because none of those people suspected that the CAF was a Nazi organization or that the airplane flying over cities across the U.S. was promoting Nazism. All of these enthusiasts viewed the aircraft as a piece of history, alive amongst us and available to view up close and personal. The airplane represented an impliment of war as a fact of history and most people viewed it as such, not as an extension of the Nazi philosophy or as symbol of evil political oppression.

Those of us who particiapte in re-enacting as a hobby do so in the very same way - not as "neo-Nazis" who push a political agenda. As I mentioned initially, I myself am a hard core libertarian - a stauch lover of freedom - I'm sure the Nazis would have sent me off to Dachau forthwith. But my love of liberty and individual rights doesn't diminish my historical interest in the Third Reich and the Luftwaffe. And I expect that most people who come to see me and my friends in uniform know that - after a few words of conversation with me, they certainly would.

The CAF Heinkel 111 crashed and burned a few years ago and that piece of living history has been extinguished. The Luftwaffe Staffel that we organized, without an airplane, had no thematic centerpiece and quickly became irrelevant. I haven't worn my Luftwaffe uniform to an event in since last year when I did a Hans Joachim Marseille impression which was well received by the crowd.

All of this is offered as an indication that each individual has his own unique perspective on any given situation, and some people see what they want to see. Not everything in life the way we'd like it to be - some things are just historical fact and can not be changed. Whether we like it or not, the Jane Fonda's will visit Hanoi, the Sean Penn's will visit Havana and Georgia boys with fly the Star & Bars. Some people see majesty in Roman legions and there are some of us who portray soldiers of a defunct National Socialist regime that lasted a mere twelve years of the whole of world history.

I hope that lends some perspective the the discussion.

-dixon cannon

 

[Dixon Cannon]

I have some more news about the use of this symbol.
In the US Army National Guard, the 45th Infantry Division used a swastika as their shoulder patch. It was used up to (I think) 1939 or 1940. The division, which recruited in Arizona and New Mexico, had a high proportion of Indians ('Native Americans' in PC-speak), who also thought the swastika was a symbol of the sun.

I'm willing to bet, if I did an impression of the 45th and wore that shoulder patch, someone, without knowledge of the history of the uniform, would take offense.

-dixon cannon

 

[Silver Dollar]

The way this thread has developed is why I said in my original post I hoped this subject would never have come up being as sensitive as it is so in that way, I agree with a bunch of you. I just felt there was no way it could have been left alone. I think at this point, we'vre pretty well weighed in on the subject.

It is an amazing thing how the swastika developed in so many cultures all independently of each other. In the Greek history, it's written that they used a symbol made by joining 4 gammas (the letter) at their bottom ends 90 degrees to each other. You'll find the sign even in Native American symbols. The hakenkreuz, the one used by the NSDAP is actually Germanic in origin. If you remember, the Germanic tribes used an alphabet called the runes. The individual letters were also used as symbols. If you look at the rune for the letter "S", it looks like a little lightning bolt like you see on the SS collar symbol. It's definitely not a lightning bolt but a letter that also stood for victory or in German, Sieg. When you take 2 Sieg runes and cross them, you come up with the swastika which was the Germanic symbol for Enlightenment. Originally it was not considered a sign of evil until its meaning became distorted by the NSDAP way back when. It's the same thing that happened to the cross when the KKK got ahold of it as was already mentioned and the cross is definitely NOT an evil symbol.

 

[Diamondback]

And if you're skeptical of Dix's commentary, just go to the 45th ID Museum near Oklahoma City, they have a small exhibit devoted to just their use of the swastika and why they transitioned to the bird. (Can't remember if it's eagle or thunderbird, though...)

 

[Silver Dollar]

Hey Dixon, I have no heartburn about what you do in your re enactments. The thing is, you have things in the right context, historical preservation. You're not espousing Nazism here and you're not defending the TR, you're doing re enactments of history. I need to point out that there are several German aircraft at the Air Force museum and the Smithsonian. They all have the swastika painted on their tails and I know for a fact that they're not pushing Nazism either. It's just way too bad that you guys lost that Heinkel. A flying example of those is just too rare.

 

[Spitfire]

In any war/conflict there has to be two parts, and if you do reenactment (which I do not) there has to be another side.
But being the son of a man who fought in the resistance against the nazis, I find it very hard to accept the facination some people has towards SS, wehrmacht, luftwaffe and kriegsmarine.
I know they were not all nazis - but they represented the nazi governement.
Like my father said to me once.
"I could not hate the single german soldier - how could I? I did not know them. But I hated everything they represented. So I fought them."
That's just my humble opinion.

 

[PADDY]

GREAT reflection on you Gentlemen ...

That this is being discussed in a balanced and cordial way. Please ensure that it remains so as such topics can be inflammatory and slide into politics which is not something TFL can endorse .. Thanks for your understanding

 

[MPicciotto]

Like my father said to me once.
"I could not hate the single german soldier - how could I? I did not know them. But I hated everything they represented. So I fought them."
That's just my humble opinion.

Sadly there are some German reenactment groups whose leadership are in fact neo-Nazi's, often complete with revisionist history beliefs, this is then fed to the younger newer members of the group. A friend's son is in one of these groups. It's really terrifying. On the other hand my AAF group has a counterpart to us in the form of the Luftwaffe Airmen's Reenators Association (LARA). And they are the absolute best! The group's leader will be the FIRST to denounce the actions of the TR and of Nazi's. He epitomizes the "single German soldier" in your father's quote, in that not only can one not hate him, but he himself hates what he "represents". But as others have said. Somebody has to play the bad guy when reenacting.

Some can reenact the soldier, some can collect the artifacts... and keep those activities separate from their ideology. Others cannot, it is those I'm concerned about.

Pre-war there was a railroad, I think in the Southwest, called "The Swastika Line".

Matt

 

[Italian-wiseguy]

My people too were pillaged and brutalized by a foreign conquerer years ago - my Anglo-Celtic ancestors were nearly annihilated by the Romans! Those "Italians" killed a lot of Jews in their day, then turned on the Christians. In the process they crushed more than a few other civilizations and races as well.

-dixon cannon

I don't mean to hijack the thread but I think you shouldn't use quotation marks: they were italians, lived here, spoke an old version of my own language (a version I had to learn at school, together with greek ) and share my own abitudes and way of life in an enormous quantities of small things that are, simply, everyday life.

E.g.:

the children here, up to this day, stop the games by saying "arimortis", which is pure and simple latin:
"arae mortuis", the altars for the dead soldiers of the opposing armies, whose funerals meant a truce...

so...

arae mortuis!

 

[Puzzicato]

fftopic: I believe the legions that conquered Britain were mostly raised in Spain and Germany, so I think it is fair to put Italians in quotation marks! They were Roman and spoke Latin, but many of the legionnaires were not from what is now Italy!

 

[ukali1066]

Yeah the Roman army was definately an equal opportunities employer

 

[Spitfire]

If anybody starts on the vikings, I'll just say the Norwegians and Swedes did it...lol

 

[Dated Guy]

Swipe me, what a subject for the academically minded amongst us. I have no axe to grind either way, I was born to late to be involved per se, but, I read a lot, and most books are somehow biased to whatever mindset the author was in at the time of writing. WW1 is another hornets nest, to try and pick the wheat from the chaff over, so many publications are released all the time with new, startling revelations from ill informed authors. Same with WW2, people who wrote books, from 'on the ground experiences', are invariably biased, because their war was better than another persons war, and so on.
Read as much as you can and get a fair idea before criticism takes over your thinking, this is not usually done by folk though, and legends and superstition abound all over.....
A great number, sadly, lost their lives as a result of different wars, this is a sad fact of life that we must contend with, it isn't easy, but, new generations come along, and all, in time, is in the main, forgotten, not immediately, but in time, another generation is more forgiving perhaps.
The Swastika wasn't really about in WW1, so what/who do we blame for that war??, it is only an emblem anyway, an interesting art form in itself, the British had a roundel on their planes, the Americans utilized a star etc.
Man, the so called wise, still shoot guns, bows and arrows, and other killing machines, alright, they mainly kill animals, but, some kill people as well, on our streets and houses, these types can be allied to the Nazi party originals maybe, but, to ostracize folk who enjoy wearing dated garb for their own pleasure is taking it a bit to far. I wear a pair of WW2 issue pilot boots, sheepskin lined, on my motorbike, other than them getting wet sometimes, they are perfect. If we suffer air pollution to any greater extent, then I may well sport a Russian Spacesuit, does that make me a Communist ????[huh]

 

[Dixon Cannon]

fftopic: I believe the legions that conquered Britain were mostly raised in Spain and Germany, so I think it is fair to put Italians in quotation marks! They were Roman and spoke Latin, but many of the legionnaires were not from what is now Italy!

I did not know that! All these years (centuries) I've been biased against Italians and it was a Spaniard that killed Boudica!! :eusa_doh:

Now I have to start all over with a new prejudice! Thanks alot for ruining my life! Years of vitriol and bitterness wasted! lol

Oh well! Now - about those Vikings!!!!

-dixon cannon

 

[Dixon Cannon]

... If we suffer air pollution to any greater extent, then I may well sport a Russian Spacesuit, does that make me a Communist ????[huh]

That I am ready to see! A pinko Limey cosmonaut in RAF boots on a BSA in a pea soup fog! Have someone get that on film for us DG!...that will be priceless!

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

I bought this book in 2008, and felt good that I read it, but ...

The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders

I felt dirty after I read it. Yes, many Germans weren't Nazi's, heck even Hitler's secretaries weren't all party members. Yes, like Patton said, SOME of the Nazi's were just like our Democrats and Republicans. In Illinois, if you want to work for the Government, it helps to join the Democratic party. Same in Nazi Germany.

The DISTURBING part of the book was the part where people WANTED the camps in their town because they needed the jobs. Jeez, gotta love that smell.

The other funny/strange part was that most Germans believed the Hitler was innocent of all of this. "If only our Fuhrer knew, he would stop all of this."

Glad I didn't live there then.

Later

 

[PADDY]

Closed.

Chaps. Between lack of cohesive direction and sliding into politics this thread bears little suitability to TFL.