jimmy the lid
I'll Lock Up
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feltfan said:
That's because it's not raining...
-
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Hilarious Misinformation About US and Our Hats
- Thread starter Visigoth
- Start date
That's because it's not raining...
Aerol
A-List Customer
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- 303
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- Chicago, IL
Fedora,
I'm with you. Sometimes preservation of the past is more important than instant gratification. And, you've convinced me that my early-'70s Lock should be preserved as-is, and not converted to something more contemporary but less authentic.
I'm with you. Sometimes preservation of the past is more important than instant gratification. And, you've convinced me that my early-'70s Lock should be preserved as-is, and not converted to something more contemporary but less authentic.
Feraud
Bartender
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- 17,190
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- Hardlucksville, NY
I think the questions are larger than, "to wear or not to wear" when it comes to vintage hats.
I would not classify the opposing groups as either "lovers" or "destroyers" of our finite vintage hats. Just because collector A has a vintage Stetson he bought brand new in 1935 and has never seen the light of day, does not make him a lover or protector of the past! Also, if collector B gets dressed to the "9's", takes his best girl out for a dinner and dancing while wearing a 50 something year old hat, I could not call him a destroyer of the past or a selfish MTV generation geek hooked on "instant gratification".
What we need to do is understand how limited our supply of vintage felt is, consider the environment we are in when we do wear that vintage hat, and take full advantage of the modern hatmakers who are replicating the vintage look in quality and construction.
I would not find it necessary to wear a 65 year old hat while tramping around the mountains or chopping wood when something else can certainly suffice.
I would not classify the opposing groups as either "lovers" or "destroyers" of our finite vintage hats. Just because collector A has a vintage Stetson he bought brand new in 1935 and has never seen the light of day, does not make him a lover or protector of the past! Also, if collector B gets dressed to the "9's", takes his best girl out for a dinner and dancing while wearing a 50 something year old hat, I could not call him a destroyer of the past or a selfish MTV generation geek hooked on "instant gratification".
What we need to do is understand how limited our supply of vintage felt is, consider the environment we are in when we do wear that vintage hat, and take full advantage of the modern hatmakers who are replicating the vintage look in quality and construction.
I would not find it necessary to wear a 65 year old hat while tramping around the mountains or chopping wood when something else can certainly suffice.
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feltfan said:
Looks like we are in the same boat. I use the tough old Dobbs. I have a photo around here somewhere of my father and a crew of the local water company from the 1940s. What are they wearing to do hard work in rain or shine---their fedoras.
Regards,
J
Interesting debate (which I'm late to).
I have a large vintage hat collection, and I know the hats won't last forever. My favorite couple of hats have so much wear (and they were originally NOS) it's kind of scary. But I'm a big fan of production-for-use - and I couldn't own a hat I wouldn't wear. In fact, when I find that a particular hat has been out of my circulation for a while, if it doesn't get worn soon, I'd rather sell it (and usually replace it with something else vintage that catches my eye and that I think will see more head time). I don't really agree with the concept of buying vintage hats for the purtpose of simply "archiving" them, and I think it's kind of cheating other folks out of hats they would otherwise wear. No offense to those whose MOs are along those lines - but the hats were made to be worn, and if they're not being worn, there's no real point. In Fedora's case especially, I can understand - he's a hatter, a craftsman, and wants to preserve some examples of the finest eras of such craftsmanship. But most of us aren't hatters. It's like collecting cars you'll never drive. The value, to me, in a lot of vintage is that it has experienced life - it has a history. That's one of the many reasons I will always choose vintage over modern (not just talking about hats here). I like getting NOS stuff from time to time, but I certainly won't go too easy on something NOS (though I'll try to keep it out of the harsher elements - I have thirty other hats I can subject to the elements, thank you very much). Buying NOS stuff, for me, is like getting to use a time machine temporarily and getting to buy something as if I'd walked into a store in 1940. I don't buy NOS stuff that often, mainly because it's not within my budget. Those get expensive, though I have indulged myself with a few (and I got lucky on them, price-wise).
Anyway, while I agree that some need to be preserved for the sake of future generations and all that, we only need so many people to do that. Few things break my heart as much as seeing old things sit on a shelf and never do what it was they were made to do. Sentimental nonsense, maybe, and no disrespect to those who feel differently, but I just like seeing old stuff live again.
That having been said...I am still planning on one day buying an Adventurebilt as my "rough and tumble" hat. I'll feel a lot better about beating the hell out of a hat I know I can easily replace - a hat that's not a one-of-a-kind that I'll never see the likes of again if it gets destroyed. I'll wear vintage hats any time, but there are some conditions which I just feel like I don't need to take the chance on. Oh, and also, I know there are folks who do fabulous cleaning and reblock jobs...but the more I can keep my vintage hats for getting destroyed in the elements, the less I have to worry about spending a bunch of money having a bunch of my hats fixed back into a wearable shape.
I have a large vintage hat collection, and I know the hats won't last forever. My favorite couple of hats have so much wear (and they were originally NOS) it's kind of scary. But I'm a big fan of production-for-use - and I couldn't own a hat I wouldn't wear. In fact, when I find that a particular hat has been out of my circulation for a while, if it doesn't get worn soon, I'd rather sell it (and usually replace it with something else vintage that catches my eye and that I think will see more head time). I don't really agree with the concept of buying vintage hats for the purtpose of simply "archiving" them, and I think it's kind of cheating other folks out of hats they would otherwise wear. No offense to those whose MOs are along those lines - but the hats were made to be worn, and if they're not being worn, there's no real point. In Fedora's case especially, I can understand - he's a hatter, a craftsman, and wants to preserve some examples of the finest eras of such craftsmanship. But most of us aren't hatters. It's like collecting cars you'll never drive. The value, to me, in a lot of vintage is that it has experienced life - it has a history. That's one of the many reasons I will always choose vintage over modern (not just talking about hats here). I like getting NOS stuff from time to time, but I certainly won't go too easy on something NOS (though I'll try to keep it out of the harsher elements - I have thirty other hats I can subject to the elements, thank you very much). Buying NOS stuff, for me, is like getting to use a time machine temporarily and getting to buy something as if I'd walked into a store in 1940. I don't buy NOS stuff that often, mainly because it's not within my budget. Those get expensive, though I have indulged myself with a few (and I got lucky on them, price-wise).
Anyway, while I agree that some need to be preserved for the sake of future generations and all that, we only need so many people to do that. Few things break my heart as much as seeing old things sit on a shelf and never do what it was they were made to do. Sentimental nonsense, maybe, and no disrespect to those who feel differently, but I just like seeing old stuff live again.
That having been said...I am still planning on one day buying an Adventurebilt as my "rough and tumble" hat. I'll feel a lot better about beating the hell out of a hat I know I can easily replace - a hat that's not a one-of-a-kind that I'll never see the likes of again if it gets destroyed. I'll wear vintage hats any time, but there are some conditions which I just feel like I don't need to take the chance on. Oh, and also, I know there are folks who do fabulous cleaning and reblock jobs...but the more I can keep my vintage hats for getting destroyed in the elements, the less I have to worry about spending a bunch of money having a bunch of my hats fixed back into a wearable shape.
Pilgrim
One Too Many
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- 1,719
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- Fort Collins, CO
The "fedora" baseball cap is indeed a nice touch, but I have no argument with the statement that the baseball cap is a symbol of America.
Baseball caps are thousands of times more popular than felt hats today. People wear them everyday. They are inexpensive, practical and comfortable when you're looking for hair coverage and an eyeshade.
US citizens wear baseball caps all over the world, and are recognized by them.
Are baseball caps a symbol fo the US? OF COURSE. Fedoras are no longer in that position.
That doesn't mean we can't wear them and enjoy them - but let's not turn our faces away from reality.
And I'm perfectly happy to let the compulsive collectors preserve hats. I'll wear mine and enjoy them.
Baseball caps are thousands of times more popular than felt hats today. People wear them everyday. They are inexpensive, practical and comfortable when you're looking for hair coverage and an eyeshade.
US citizens wear baseball caps all over the world, and are recognized by them.
Are baseball caps a symbol fo the US? OF COURSE. Fedoras are no longer in that position.
That doesn't mean we can't wear them and enjoy them - but let's not turn our faces away from reality.
And I'm perfectly happy to let the compulsive collectors preserve hats. I'll wear mine and enjoy them.
Mojave Jack
One Too Many
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- Yucca Valley, California
As a professional collections manager, I find this debate over "preserving" amusing. Keeping a stack of hats in your closet is not preserving anything, it's just hording them. True preservation includes maintaining a collection in a temperature and humidity controlled space, with minimal exposure to light, stored in archival materials that are designed to preserve the item's shape and prevent deterioration. I can almost guarantee no one in this forum has their hats stored in acid-free archival hat boxes, with ethyfoam supports to prevent sagging, and maintained in a controlled environment. And there's nothing wrong with that. Hats were meant to be worn, and are, in the parlance of the museum world, consumables.
If preservation is your goal--and it is an admirable goal--then donate your hats to a museum where they will be preserved in the true sense of the word, that is, cataloged, photographed, recorded, and placed in a repository that meets the guidelines set down in Code of Federal Regulations (36 CFR 79) or other professional guidance. Furthermore, the goal of preservation should be, ultimately, to share those artifacts with the public at large for the purposes of education. If you're not using your hats for education, but just stashing them in the back room of your house for the benefit of some unnamed individual sometime in the to-be-determined future then the collection has little or no value, and worse, it is constantly at risk from fire, flood, and natural deterioration with no record. It's like the collector with a cigar box full of arrow heads in his basement. What good do they do? They have no provenience, they are seen by no one, and the collector rarely, if ever, shows them to anyone.
As a curator, I often mourn the loss of key artifacts, including hats and caps. However, I also frequently find myself having to dispose of materials that have little or no historical significance, because people felt that it was "too cool/interesting/old/etc." to throw away. There is simply not the space or the time to preserve everything that comes along. I wholeheartedly agree that prime examples of felts, hats, hatmaking tools, advertisements, photos, and other accoutrements and paraphernalia should be preserved, but it should be a representative sample, not an attempt to preserve every single item. And it should be done by professionals whose business it is to maintain those items in perpetuity, and who will use those items to educate the public.
So I say wear those hats, and when people ask you about them on the street, tell them all about them. Treat them with care and respect, and it you come across something really fine and rare, donate it to a museum that will use it to teach under the conditions that will ensure it's preservation under the proper conditions for as long as is practical and possible.
If preservation is your goal--and it is an admirable goal--then donate your hats to a museum where they will be preserved in the true sense of the word, that is, cataloged, photographed, recorded, and placed in a repository that meets the guidelines set down in Code of Federal Regulations (36 CFR 79) or other professional guidance. Furthermore, the goal of preservation should be, ultimately, to share those artifacts with the public at large for the purposes of education. If you're not using your hats for education, but just stashing them in the back room of your house for the benefit of some unnamed individual sometime in the to-be-determined future then the collection has little or no value, and worse, it is constantly at risk from fire, flood, and natural deterioration with no record. It's like the collector with a cigar box full of arrow heads in his basement. What good do they do? They have no provenience, they are seen by no one, and the collector rarely, if ever, shows them to anyone.
As a curator, I often mourn the loss of key artifacts, including hats and caps. However, I also frequently find myself having to dispose of materials that have little or no historical significance, because people felt that it was "too cool/interesting/old/etc." to throw away. There is simply not the space or the time to preserve everything that comes along. I wholeheartedly agree that prime examples of felts, hats, hatmaking tools, advertisements, photos, and other accoutrements and paraphernalia should be preserved, but it should be a representative sample, not an attempt to preserve every single item. And it should be done by professionals whose business it is to maintain those items in perpetuity, and who will use those items to educate the public.
So I say wear those hats, and when people ask you about them on the street, tell them all about them. Treat them with care and respect, and it you come across something really fine and rare, donate it to a museum that will use it to teach under the conditions that will ensure it's preservation under the proper conditions for as long as is practical and possible.
MattC
A-List Customer
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- San Francisco and New York City
Wow
Good advice, thanks (I'm a wearer).
Good advice, thanks (I'm a wearer).
Lovely post, Jack. Puts all of this in perspective.
Funny, those concerned about the preservation of Rome have the same issues: these are *public* monuments; do you really want to inhibit their accessibility and use? The middle ground, adopted by many preservationists, is to keep things public, and in as good shape as possible under those circumstances, but recognize that this will cause gradual erosion. The alternative -- to shut things off, or put them behind glass -- is simply unrealistic.
Funny, those concerned about the preservation of Rome have the same issues: these are *public* monuments; do you really want to inhibit their accessibility and use? The middle ground, adopted by many preservationists, is to keep things public, and in as good shape as possible under those circumstances, but recognize that this will cause gradual erosion. The alternative -- to shut things off, or put them behind glass -- is simply unrealistic.
Spatterdash
A-List Customer
- Messages
- 310
Mojave Jack says...
"That belongs in a museum!"
Well said, has a familiar ring to it.
"That belongs in a museum!"
Well said, has a familiar ring to it.
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Magus
Practically Family
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I am all for wearing my vintage hats...For me thats what is enjoyable about them. It also gives me a a chance to share a little hat history with the people who admire them, which is nearly every day.
In line at the market...counter person/fellow line member/bag person etc will say. "Nice hat!" I say..."thanks, its Itialian made from the 40's." Their eyes get big and a small conversation ensues that many times involve the question "Where could I get something like that?" and....
BLING
Another convert to good style.
M
In line at the market...counter person/fellow line member/bag person etc will say. "Nice hat!" I say..."thanks, its Itialian made from the 40's." Their eyes get big and a small conversation ensues that many times involve the question "Where could I get something like that?" and....
BLING
Another convert to good style.
M
MattC
A-List Customer
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- 426
- Location
- San Francisco and New York City
Ah, but do you
tell them (actually, I do)>
tell them (actually, I do)>
