Help on a hat color

[Big Man]

I'm just about ready to have a new custom hat made and I need some help deciding on the color. I want a hat like my grandfather is wearing in the photos below. The first picture was taken in December, 1924 and the second was within a year (before or after) the first. My question is, what color is his hat? I don't know if his hat is black, brown , or dark gray.

I know there isn't a way to necessarily look at the picture and tell, but what I'm hoping is that the collective knowledge of this group will be able to provide a "best guess" based upon the date the photo was taken and the most probable color of the clothing, car, etc. My grandfather was 47 years old in this picture. The picture was taken in rural western North Carolina. At the time, my grandfather worked at the McDowell Hardware. They weren't rich people, but at the same time they did own a car, and had indoor plumbing (something most folks in Nebo didn't have at that time). I don't know if any of this information helps, but who knows.

So, given this information, what do you think is the most probable color of my grandfather's hat?

 

[avedwards]

I have no reason for this, but my guess is brown with a black (or quite dark brown) band. Black would seem illogical as people did not use this for their everday hat (only when looking more formal) and if your grandfather wasn't rich he probably only had one hat.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

On close examination, I'd say you've got pictures of two different hats. In the first, the ribbon comes about one third of the way up the crown. In the second shot, the ribbon looks much wider, about half the height of the crown.

There is virtually no way to discern the color from a b&w photo. However, back in the day, if a man had only one hat, it tended to be dark brown with a black ribbon. If he had more than one...

 

[Preacher Man]

Hello Big Man;

Judging from the picture and from my knowledge of my own grandfather who would have been about the same age as your grandfather appears to be in those pics from 1924; I'd have to agree with J.T. on the probable color. In the pics of my grandfather from his day he was wearing either his dark brown fedora or his straw fedora. Most of the pics I've seen and the folks I've known from that day were like your grandfather; from smal rural areas; didn't dress formal, usually a suit for a funeral otherwise when they "dressed" it was a white shirt, tie and their dark brown fedora on cooler days or thier straw fedora on warmer days. Just my 2 cents. Which ever you choose I think it's a great way to honor your grandfather's memory.
God Bless;
Preacher Man

 

[Big Man]

On close examination, I'd say you've got pictures of two different hats. In the first, the ribbon comes about one third of the way up the crown. In the second shot, the ribbon looks much wider, about half the height of the crown.

There is virtually no way to discern the color from a b&w photo. However, back in the day, if a man had only one hat, it tended to be dark brown with a black ribbon. If he had more than one...

You may be right about there being different hats in the pictures. I've looked at them time and time again, and I thought it was the same hat, but as they say, two eyes are better than one (thus the reason for this thread - to get a consensus).

As to owning "just one hat", I would suspect he had more than one. I have a b&w picture, and have seen a color portrait (years ago at my great aunt's house), where he is wearing a light gray suit and light gray hat (that photo was taken in August, 1928). When I said they weren't "rich" I didn't mean that they were "poor" either. My grandfather had a good job and a responsible position at McDowell Hardware. I guess the best description of their financial position was "comfortable".

 

[Brad Bowers]

I respectfully disagree...

I realize I'm going against the grain here, but I believe both hats are black, or perhaps a very, very dark grey. Black was a common color choice back then, as it was the style of the hat that gave it a sense of formality, not necessarily the color.

Brad

 

[Wil Tam]

Most likely brown with a dark brown or black ribbon

My grandfather's hat is a brown Bond Executive with a dark brown ribbon, he may have had others but it was the only one that I found in his belongings after his passing. But he was a city dweller living in railroad flat, although he did travel as an merchant seaman, working as a cook... I think it's a great way to honor & remember your grandfather. I sent his hat to Optimos to have renovated.

----------------
Now playing: The Isley Brothers - The Highway of My Life
via FoxyTunes

 

[Big Man]

I realize I'm going against the grain here, but I believe both hats are black, or perhaps a very, very dark grey. Black was a common color choice back then, as it was the style of the hat that gave it a sense of formality, not necessarily the color.

Brad

Thanks for the insight. I was leaning towards black, but just wasn't sure. If the pants and vest he's wearing are black, then the hat most likely would be black or very dark gray as you suggest. However, it the suit is dark brown, then most likely it's a brown hat, right? But, what if the suit is a dark navy? What color hat would most likely be matched with dark navy?

Maybe the question I should have asked first is, "what color suit do you think this is" (given the 1924 date) ?

 

[demian]

Exactly.

In fact my suggestion contrary to most here was going to be a midnight blue or navy blue.

A dark blue can be made both casual and formal. It does not have to be formal as a lighter/different colored ribbon changes things dramatically.

Unless you have a particular dark olive or brownish complexion, I would pursue the blue.

I respect your effort, and color, well, when I read your post title I thought, "THAT is the question"...it isn't an easy decision.

But, it's always the journey that is more fun than the destination, you know?

Post what you decide and have made in the future.

Best
D

 

[Randy]

It's difficult to say for certain as prints alter greatly when scanned, older prints change over time, monitor gamma calibration, etc. but judging the exposure based on his shirt and the sky, which blend almost seamlessly at the shoulder, the color of his clothes, hat included, were likely darker in real life than they register here. Remember, black and white photos don't simply strip the color, they register the tonal values of the subject, or the amount of reflected light if you will. In order for the whites to be so washed out in the print, the image would have to have been over exposed somewhat, lightening all the tonal values, including those of his hat and clothes. Even a quite dark brown would show up lighter than this in a black and white print, especially given probable over-exposure.

Another way to compare the hat is with the shadow areas inside the roof and the interior of the car, which are both quite close to those of his clothes. And in doing so, don't discount the fact that his hat (and clothes) are in a reasonable amount of sunlight and they are still quite dark. My guess would be black, or very close to it...

- Randy

 

[Big Man]

Thanks, Randy, that is really an in-depth answer (with a lot of things I've never considered).

 

[dschonn]

The fact that the shirt blends in with the sky does not mean necessarily that the entire picture is overexposed. I have worked with black and white photography, and I know from that that there are filters one can use to increase the contrast in a print when the negative used is relatively flat in tone. It looks to me like these photos have quite a lot of contrast, which means not only that the light tones look lighter, but that the dark tones look darker than they might have in real life. The first photo in particular has mostly very light or very dark tones, and very little mid-grey. This may be because the things in the photo were all either very light or very dark, but I think it's work considering that the hat and clothing were not as dark as they look.

Also, I think it's possible that both photos show the same hat. The brim is turned up in front in the first photo, which obscures the bottom of the ribbon in front and makes it look narrower than it really was. On the back of the hat, it looks like the ribbon does reach halfway up the crown, or nearly so.

I know all that wasn't very helpful for narrowing down the color, but I wanted to give my input.

 

[Big Man]

... I know all that wasn't very helpful for narrowing down the color, but I wanted to give my input.

Thanks. Every bit of information, opinion, speculation, or even "SWAG" is appreciated (and will help me decide what I need to do in getting a hat made).

One thing about the two photos. The original photos look different. the one with the car is stark black and white, while the group shot has a brownish cast to the entire photo. In reference in film, exposure, camera, processing?

Any way, thanks to all for their input. It really is appreciated.

 

[Big Man]

... The brim is turned up in front in the first photo, which obscures the bottom of the ribbon in front and makes it look narrower than it really was ...

I can almost hear my grandmother say just before she snapped the picture: "Dad, turn up the brim on your hat, I can't see your face."

 

[Randy]

Thanks. Every bit of information, opinion, speculation, or even "SWAG" is appreciated (and will help me decide what I need to do in getting a hat made).

One thing about the two photos. The original photos look different. the one with the car is stark black and white, while the group shot has a brownish cast to the entire photo. In reference in film, exposure, camera, processing?

Any way, thanks to all for their input. It really is appreciated.

The color of the print could have to do with the quality of processing or the quality of it's care since processing. Some prints were sepia toned purposefully, and some changed with time due to poor fixing, poor washing, poor storage, or any number of other things. I am trained in archival photographic management and have been a strictly black and white photographer for decades, but without testing in the lab I could not tell you why yours are the way they are. The bottom line is that it's just fantastic that you both have and enjoy them still.

- Randy