Help! - my left, your right????

[Speedbird]

I have no idea where this should go, or even how to ask the question :eusa_doh:

I think I might have a 'divided by a common language' emergency......

I have been looking up some information from the USA ...and the info talks about to the left or to the right ... but when I look at it, to me it seems like a mirror image of what is being described [huh]

This can get confusing in England and we often end up with a comedy of errors involving "my left, your right, no your right my left blah blah ..." but I am now seriously confused ....

Is there a convention to describing left and right in the USA? ... is it different to that in the UK and can anyone understand this and put it into a form of words that makes any sense at all!!!!

Please help a befuddled Englishman!

 

[R.A. Stewart]

Right, I'm left befuddled as well ... I'll be watching the thread from this side of the Atlantic. (My east, your west. No, wait ...)

~Rich

 

[zetwal]

 

[23SkidooWithYou]

Speedbird...

The question is making MY head hurt, lol.

Are you looking at a posted photo?
Generally, I should think right would describe what is to the right side of your monitor. However, a seller could be speaking specifically to the item itself, eg "there is a spot on the right lapel of the jacket". The right of the jacket (from the perspective of being worn), when photographed front on, would actually be the left of the monitor. This would change if the spot were on the right elbow...the jacket, when photographed from the back side, would display the right elbow on the right of the monitor.

On second thought....don't listen to me. I still can't figure out which side of the stairwell you folks use for up/down and almost bought the farm crossing one of your streets looking in the wrong direction.

 

[JimWagner]

I think I might have a 'divided by a common language' emergency......

I have been looking up some information from the USA ...and the info talks about to the left or to the right ... but when I look at it, to me it seems like a mirror image of what is being described [huh]

It might help to know the actual context of the information you are referring to.

 

[Geesie]

Sound off!

 

[Speedbird]

oh help ... skiddoo makes sort of sense ... but you are right... context would help!

http://www.cbi-history.com/part_ib.html#1


If this link takes you to a load of text, just scroll down to the first set of patches shown under 14th Air Force.

The first patch shows the tiger going to what I would call the right (i.e. the right of the patch as worn), the others show the tiger going to the left (what I would call left).

Then underneath there is text about switching the tiger to going to right so it appears that the tiger is not 'retreating' when on the right shoulder ... but the patches shown below, if worn on my right shoulder would be going backwards!!!

What am I missing here!

:eusa_doh: :eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

 

[Speedbird]

subject - object insanity

Speedbird...

The question is making MY head hurt, lol.

Are you looking at a posted photo?
Generally, I should think right would describe what is to the right side of your monitor. However, a seller could be speaking specifically to the item itself, eg "there is a spot on the right lapel of the jacket". The right of the jacket (from the perspective of being worn), when photographed front on, would actually be the left of the monitor. This would change if the spot were on the right elbow...the jacket, when photographed from the back side, would display the right elbow on the right of the monitor.

On second thought....don't listen to me. I still can't figure out which side of the stairwell you folks use for up/down and almost bought the farm crossing one of your streets looking in the wrong direction.

This makes sense and is probably described scientifically as 'subject' viewpoint and 'object' viewpoint.... but that is hard to understand as well ....

what I do know is that if you show me a front of a jacket in a photo - the left sleeve is on my right handside.... and so on.

So is there a convention that says when viewing an 'object' - is left or right from the viewers' i.e. subjects' perspective or from the object perspective?

Am I driving everyone else as crazy as myself? :rage:

 

[Speedbird]

perfect ... but is it universal?

This is what I believe is the correct orientation of the world...

but is this universally accepted when describing objects as you look at them...


Perhaps I should explain my confusion further ... I know left from right but my wife is arabic and I speak some chinese ... so everything is back to front and upside down in my head...... confusing [huh]

 

[Dinerman]

The sleeve they are referring to is your right sleeve, the one that covers your right arm. With the tiger facing the left, its head would be facing your back instead of your chest when worn on your right shoulder. If the tiger is facing right, when worn on your right sleeve, it is facing your chest.

 

[Speedbird]

The sleeve they are referring to is your right sleeve, the one that covers your right arm. With the tiger facing the left, its head would be facing your back instead of your chest when worn on your right shoulder. If the tiger is facing right, when worn on your right sleeve, it is facing your chest.

I might still be dealing with a left-right dyslexia here... but what you have described is exactly the mirror image I was confused with. No! That can not be right! Tiger facing left, moved to right shoulder = tiger head facing forwards. But the link shows the opposite.. Tiger facing right... moved 90 degrees around to the right shoulder = tiger facing backwards!

this is not as simple as it seems!!

This is not right and is doing my head in ... i am going to lie down in a darkened room.........

 

[sixties.nut]

Speedbird DUDE

Left is Left, no matter if it's facing you or obverse to you.

Your American Cousin,

Loony Bird

It is universal, unless of course your reading from the internet! On the internet just try to imagine what the writer states. Like here, MacArthur suffering from a high degree of autism, Batman the animated series belonging to Noir. etc. etc. :eusa_doh:

 

[Dinerman]

Your right shoulder, not the shoulder which would be on your right if you are looking at a jacket from the front. That would be the left shoulder of the wearer. Try it with a sticky note- draw an arrow pointing left, put it on your right shoulder. It will point backwards.

 

[Speedbird]

Your right shoulder, not the shoulder which would be on your right if you are looking at a jacket from the front. That would be the left shoulder of the wearer. Try it with a sticky note- draw an arrow pointing left, put it on your right shoulder. It will point backwards.

rgh


aaargh ... an arrow drawn left if placed on the right will point forwards!!!! ..that is exactly my point! .. the tiger is supposed to point head forwards ...your sticky note idea actually proves this but you said the opposite...

I love diners by the way, my favorite is in Salem, Oregon - Rockin' Rogers but my best tourist version is the Empire (I think that's the name) in Chelsea, NY. Is there a diner thread somewhere! I have been to a few others.....

Anyway, back to my seemingly impossible question, there is only one conclusion and that is the webpage author got confused too! There is no way on earth that those newer patches can be on the right shoulder and face forwards!

The older ones can ... so maybe it really meant left shoulder????

Who knows which arm the official patch was supposed to be worn on?

Edit: I figured out what dinerman is doing - he's rotating it through a central vertical axis by 180 degrees. This is sound physically, but doesn't work with a badge with only one side which must slide around without rotating!

 

[Dinerman]

The website author is correct. The patch goes on your right shoulder. Same side of the shirt/jacket as the buttons are on on menswear. Opposite side as the breast pocket on a suitcoat.

Apparently there's one classic diner in London, at 64 Trinity Buoy Wharf, London, England, united kingdom.
That listing hasn't been confirmed in a while, but that's the best I've got.

The Empire's a nice one- classic old fodero built diner.

 

[John in Covina]

"Retreating" is the operative word maybe.

The idea is for the image to be set up so that what ever side it is on the animal faces forward as going into battle. Let's say the tiger is on both sides of a plane, from the pilots view the right side and the left the tiger is reversed from the other side so it faces forward no matter what side you look at. >>> --0-- <<<

If they move the patch on a uniform they want the tiger to face forward no matter what side it is on.

 

[anon`]

Ok, first off, this is the "correct" orientation of the patch, ca. 1944:

In it, the tiger's head is to the left of the patch. In this case (as with most cases in [American?] English), if another object (such as "stage") is not specifed, left/right refer's to the viewer's perspective.

Now, in the context of this question, this patch would have always been worn on the left shoulder prior to 1945. When US servicemen were allowed to place a "combat patch" on their right shoulder in 1945, the tiger would've wound up facing backwards. It is probable that the "reverse" patches (where the tiger is facing right on the patch) were created for the reason previously mentioned (advancing and not retreating). This can be seen in modern US uniforms, where the flag is worn on the right arm and with the blue field of stars on the right side of the image. This looks wrong to most Americans, as the flag is always displayed with the blue field of stars on the left, except when worn on a uniform. In that case, the blue field of stars always faces the wearer's front, thus forcing the orientation to change to a mirror image if the arm it is worn on is changed. Does that make any more sense?

 

[Speedbird]

massive effort to help a mathematically confused englishman!

The website author is correct. The patch goes on your right shoulder. Same side of the shirt/jacket as the buttons are on on menswear. Opposite side as the breast pocket on a suitcoat.

Apparently there's one classic diner in London, at 64 Trinity Buoy Wharf, London, England, united kingdom.
That listing hasn't been confirmed in a while, but that's the best I've got.

The Empire's a nice one- classic old fodero built diner.

That's superb... I will go eat cheeseburgers and drink milkshake authentically - there are a couple of diner 'style' restaurants on the A40 and A1 ... but not completely in the same league as the Empire.

As to the left - right thing I give up ... I admire your massive effort to educate me and I get your photo display ... but to me it is reversed. Your left in my head is still to the right. Anyway, disregarding that .... the tiger in question will still be pointing backwards.

So something is wrong somewhere ... maybe the images have been flipped accidentally.

 

[Speedbird]

That's the one ...

Ok, first off, this is the "correct" orientation of the patch, ca. 1944:

In it, the tiger's head is to the left of the patch. In this case (as with most cases in [American?] English), if another object (such as "stage") is not specifed, left/right refer's to the viewer's perspective.

Now, in the context of this question, this patch would have always been worn on the left shoulder prior to 1945. When US servicemen were allowed to place a "combat patch" on their right shoulder in 1945, the tiger would've wound up facing backwards. It is probable that the "reverse" patches (where the tiger is facing right on the patch) were created for the reason previously mentioned (advancing and not retreating). This can be seen in modern US uniforms, where the flag is worn on the right arm and with the blue field of stars on the right side of the image. This looks wrong to most Americans, as the flag is always displayed with the blue field of stars on the left, except when worn on a uniform. In that case, the blue field of stars always faces the wearer's front, thus forcing the orientation to change to a mirror image if the arm it is worn on is changed. Does that make any more sense?

Thanks Anon, for posting the patch, and helping out! now it will make more sense to everyone! So now we have my problem ... this is the later official patch right? or at least the same orientation as the later patches....? And was designed for the left shoulder?

And this is a 'flip' of the earlier versions with the tigers head in the opposite direction?

How on earth can this be worn on the right shoulder and still face forwards in advance? It obviously can't - so are you saying that a mirror image of this exists for the purposes of the right shoulder? which would more or less look like the unofficially sanctioned versions which existed earlier for the right shoulder so other patches could be worn on the left shoulder?

So the thing about the army changing the design is more or less a red herring - in reality this was a left shoulder patch wth something like a CBI on the right shoulder?

 

[Speedbird]

and also thank you .. you answered the original question...

In it, the tiger's head is to the left of the patch. In this case (as with most cases in [American?] English), if another object (such as "stage") is not specifed, left/right refer's to the viewer's perspective.


In English England .... the tigers head is to the right of the patch...

this is the source of my original confusion and question ... we do view things from a different perspective in the UK, that being relative to the object not the viewer (or at least i do!) and it seems the opposite in the US!

Thanks anon - I thought I was going bonkers! :eusa_clap [huh]