Hats banned from Yorkshire pubs

[ShoreRoadLady]

I didn't see this posted already, so I thought I'd go ahead.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2085192/Hats-banned-from-Yorkshire-pubs-over-CCTV-fears.html

Quote from the Telegraph:

Pubs in Yorkshire have been ordered to ban people from wearing flat caps or other hats so troublemakers can be more easily recognised.
The Park Hotel in Wadsley, Sheffield, is the latest to be asked to impose the rule by senior police officers.

....

A South Yorkshire Police spokesman said bans on people wearing headgear in public premises had been operated in banks and post offices for years.

She added: "There have been incidents both in pubs and other establishments when it has not been possible to identify offenders captured on CCTV because hats were hiding their faces."

 

[Charlie Noodles]

Ugh. Could any of the Brit's here explain what the deal is in the UK? Why is the country that brought us Nineteen Eighty-Four seemingly so keen to make it happen?

Actually that might be too political... I'll leave that up to you, Bartenders.

 

[donCarlos]

I think that´s fault of the troublemakers... It´s sad that the prevention hits everyone, but it´s very effective. I really admire the british laws about the hooligans and rowdies as they are hard enough to prevent these people make trouble.

It´d be interesting to try to come to some pub in yorkshire, wearing a suit and hat, remove the hat according to etiquette and watch what the bartender will do.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

This is all to do with the increasing use of CCTV in pubs to identify yobs. First they banned the baseball caps (yobs use them to avoid their faces being seen on high mounted cameras), now it seems flat caps are the target.

Another bit of northern English life eroded, sadly.

Mind you it will take a lot to part some of these old guys from their caps, they probably haven't taken them off since 1922!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Put bluntly, the deal in the UK is irresponsible alcohol consumption by people who should not drink more than a pint or two (because they become excessively aggressive after that). We are brought up to believe that once you enter a pub you must not leave it until inebriated. Mix this with the frustration of an unfulfilling life in the factory etc.* and you have a recipe for outbursts of extreme anger. Unfortunately it is still the same. No-one seems to want to address the issue, and instead rely on idiotic legislation which makes old men take their ecky thump hats off. And now we have a nice scape-goat in youth gangs. Like this is only an issue of underage drinking! (Though, of course drunken youth gangs are a part of the problem.)

The violence i saw in pubs as i was growing up in small town Scotland is something most American (or European) pub-goers can barely fathom. And i'm not talking about violence perpetrated by roaming youth. I'm talking about adults; people who should know better; people who should be setting an example for the youth. For many people, violent outbursts seem to be the only release for the pent-up frustration which life generates. Not for them the joys of taking out anger against a ball (football, squash, tennis), or "count[ing] to five and twenty, Tattycoram". It must be another human being that takes the punishment, or the accelerator of a car. The problem is not a new one.

The silly legislation is novel, but in a long tradition of silly legislation designed to sweep a serious societal problem under the rug of apparent relief. Noises currently emanating from the government tend to suggest they are thinking of tackling the problem of over-consumption and bingeing - across all age groups and societal strata. :eusa_clap We shall see.

bk

* My examples, are drawn - as they must be - from my own working class upbringing. I do not suggest that these issues are confined to the working class areas. Far from it!

 

[Naphtali]

While, to my knowledge, Great Britain does not yet have a written constitution, I believe an essential function of such a document, including a bill of individuals' rights, is specifically intended to protect the right of individuals to be irresponsible a**holes. A ramification of these rights is a "moving target" of what a society can do to protect itself from individuals' excessive irresponsibility.

I wonder if the EU's bill of rights, or a [general] international bill of rights addresses the topic of society/government intruding upon people's lives in this matter?

 

[Woodfluter]

Put bluntly, the deal in the UK is irresponsible alcohol consumption by people who should not drink more than a pint or two /// etc.

The violence i saw in pubs as i was growing up in small town Scotland is something most American (or European) pub-goers can barely fathom./// etc.

Thank you B.K. for this insightful analysis. This is just another thing about modern life that is extremely sad.

As a counter example to ponder, I offer this entirely true story as an example of a very different world view. And apologize for length.

Late 1970's in south Texas. I used to work at a mine near Bruni, a blip on the highway whose major establishments were a restaurant that closed at 1 pm and the "Oilfield Lounge", a bar tended by a little old guy named Shorty. Our friend Shorty had a serious tremor and could barely pour a glass without spilling half the contents. He used to challenge strangers to a game of pool for cash. They would laugh while he tried to chalk his cue, keep laughing while he lined up his first shot...then he suddenly grew rock steady and proceeded to run the table.

Anyhow, with or without pool preliminaries I know not, but this guy showed up in the middle of the day and wanted a sixpack of beer to go. Shorty told him they didn't have a license for carry-out, and the traveler didn't take that kindly. Not at all. He said he'd be back and he'd rue the day.

A couple of weeks later comes the Christmas party for my company after work, at the Oilfield Lounge. I left right before the excitement happened, but most attendees were still present. The stranger re-appeared, driven there by his brother in law. He was very drunk and armed, walked in and started to shoot at Shorty and anything else moving. Fortunately spinning rooms do not contribute to accurate pistolry, and several of my co-workers, all native to the area for many generations preceding Anglo settlement, wrestled him to the floor and deprived him of his weaponry. They then proceeded to beat the crap out of him for around 20 minutes, leaving him a bloody mess in the middle of the road.

Now bear in mind, this is a sparsely populated area. A main road, but at that time of day, maybe one car passes every 15 to 25 minutes. Police had closed for the night in Hebronville (where I lived) so they called the nearest all-night constabulary, located about 45 minutes drive (at 75 mph+) in Falfurrias. The deputy was on duty. He shows up in his personal, unmarked station wagon, says "yeah, we know this guy, he's on probation for stabbing someone", asks no more questions of anyone and they load him into the back of the wagon and off he goes. End of story.

Now I knew these guys well. They surely weren't sober when I left them. I can attest that most of them had firearms somewhere in their pickups. Which they didn't resort to.

Now let me add this...the year my bicycle was stolen in Hebronville, it was one of only two reported crimes, the other being a missing water cooler in the back of a pickup that might have been taken or might have fallen out. Folks routinely left their doors unlocked and tools lying in the yard. Everyone I encountered there treated everyone else, stranger or friend, with extreme courtesy and consideration, sober or not. The sort of banter that would be commonplace in a bar in New Jersey almost never occured, but when it did, the entire room would fall silent and folks backed off toward the perimeter to make way for the likely proceedings. Which in the cases I saw consisted of sincere apologies.

I love England and more so, Scotland. I've visited and have friends there, and have seen a bit of their approach to dealing with violence. A story such as the above would be dismissed by some of them as improbable, the stuff of western movies. They prefer to control all outbreaks of that sort through legal channels, giving those authorities ever increasing power to handle that. And power leads to abuse of same. Concommitant is the complete disarming of everyone. I vividly recall signs in Yorkshire saying that all knives were weapons and the carrying of same was resolutely forbidden, amusing to someone who used one a dozen or more times a day and constantly had one on his person since he was eight.

No offense toward anyone, and being acutely aware that many factors are doubtless at play, but I would feel much more comfortable living amongst armed people in S. Texas or Utah than in parts of New Jersey or the UK. Silly laws against hats don't stop violence. A citizenry that won't tolerate abusive behavior can, however.

Obligatory hat content: In late 1990's, I wore a traditional flat cap in Yorkshire while everyone else were bareheaded or wore baseball caps. Marked me as an outsider. [Sigh...]

- Bill

 

[Godfrey]

Could this be an opportunity to bring back compulsory hat check girls? You can drop in for a quick pint and leave with a brushed trilby and a saucy wink!

 

[Tango Yankee]

When I was stationed in the UK I accidentally used a couple of petrol stations that refused to accept your money (after you'd already filled your tank) unless you removed your motorcycle helmet. That was fairly annoying for several reasons. First, you generally wanted to get in, fill up, and get back out on the road with minimum fuss. Secondly, it was quite often cold and wet over there. Once you get your gear on properly to keep out the cold and wet taking off part of it screws things up. You wind up with a wind leak, or rainwater running down your neck. Third, I'm standing right there with a credit card or cash in my hand, trying to pay for my purchase. If I was going to rob you I'd either have just filled up and left, or I'd be displaying a weapon and not cash.

Regards,
Tom

 

[The Librarian]

Stereotyping?

So Woodfluter, as a New Jersey resident, I'm curious as to where in my state you developed this image of us? Or was it from watching The Sopranos. Mind you I live in the southern portion so perhaps I'm not aware of this "banter" you write of. I've seen a few barfights. And they are treated very seriously and not as common occurances. And back to topic, I've been refused entrance to most of them with a hat. Never knew why as I never noticed cameras. Maybe hats being so distinctive would screw up any description of a person (hair color, hair style, bald).

Marty

 

[Nick D]

I was told to remove my hat at one bar in Otley, once I got inside there was nothing but undergrads in miniskirts and cheap 'cowboy' hats on. Most of the bars along that stretch of road are part of the 'Otley Run', and going out in fancy dress is a popular activity in Leeds.

And besides which, the flatcap barely covers anything but the top of your head. The brim is shorter than a ballcap. Are they concerned about identifying elderly gentlemen by their bald spot??

 

[Woodfluter]

So Woodfluter, as a New Jersey resident, I'm curious as to where in my state you developed this image of us? Or was it from watching The Sopranos. Mind you I live in the southern portion so perhaps I'm not aware of this "banter" you write of. I've seen a few barfights. And they are treated very seriously and not as common occurances. And back to topic, I've been refused entrance to most of them with a hat. Never knew why as I never noticed cameras. Maybe hats being so distinctive would screw up any description of a person (hair color, hair style, bald).

Marty

Sorry Marty! I did say no offense intended. Worked out of office in northern NJ, Somerville area, went occasionally to some bars in Newark and Paterson. Lived later in western NJ, near Ringoes and Sergeantsville, which is absolutely lovely country. But let me explain...

When I was living and working in S. Texas, a geologist was hired who grew up in New York state. The way he talked to folks was exactly like the average person from NJ, in my view. To my ears, and yours, nothing exceptional. In the ears of these folks, coming from their cultural background, he sounded like he was shouting at them all the time and very angry. They told me so. After I had been down there some months I could see what they meant. Initially I couldn't.

Example: Guy from up north breezes in and says "Hey, what's happening with these wellhead pressures! They're going up! We gotta get them under control." Accompanied by (friendly) direct eye contact and a smile. To them, he seemed about to fly off the handle.

Example: Local or acclimatized engineer: "Hey Joe, did you all go swimming in the tank [i.e. a farm pond] last night? Sounds great. Maybe I'll come over next week, I'm working too late now. You know, I've been thinking about getting something for my truck...[and after 5 more minutes of banter]...Oh, by the way, I was watching the wellhead pressures, so, whatcha think? They doing OK or might they be drifting upward a bit, maybe?" Accompanied by brief, intermittent eye contact. That way, no pressure or embarrassment and they could take control and tell you how they were fixing it. That's just how it was done. The only respectful way to them.

I'm not sure I can explain this rightly, but it isn't that there's something wrong with the way the person from NJ or wherever interacts. It's just that if you take that to a place with a different cultural outlook, it can end up being very mistaken. Lots of the folks I knew had never been farther away from home than San Antonio in their entire lives, so they had limited understanding of different ways.

In Hebronville, one time they brought in a police officer from "outside". He kept giving the locals speeding tickets, although his boss told him to take it easy. One day after work, he came home to find the trailer in which he made his home had been jacked up off its blocks and tipped over, along with all contents. Of course, nobody had seen anything. He left town that same night. Really easygoing folks, courteous and gentle and slow to anger, but you didn't want to get crosswise of them. I liked them.

Obligatory hat content: Yeah, I've been in places that had a "no hats" policy and never could get anyone to explain the rationale. I'd end up holding it in my hand until I got tired of that, put it back on and then get asked to take it off. I stopped going to those places.

-Bill

 

[RPeers]

As a restaurateur myself I am appalled by this article recognizing trouble makers should be done at the door by a bouncer if you have the atmosphere that trouble makers flock too, cctv cameras that are monitored constantly just don't make sense as you still need a security or bouncer to find the customer and escort him out. Classy establishments are not frequented by trouble makers, and bartenders in an establishment should be responsible for monitoring the intoxication level of the guests whether hatted or hatless, I don't know how many times I've had to cut off a guest but I always tell them when I give them their last drink, and you know what you will see that same guy sitting there with a smile on his face and that same drink an hour later nursing it cause he knows it's his last.

Feel free to wear your hat if you visit me here in Toronto,
RPeers

 

[Edward]

I've been asked to remove my hat at the door of a number of West End pubs in reent years. It is, as stated above, largely due to the increased use of CCTV to identify (and, equally importantly, evidence) troublemakers. Doesn't feel like an imposition to me (I invariably remove my hat in such a venue anyhow), but I tend to agree with BK in that it does smack of treating symptoms rather than the underlying causes.

 

[dollydaydream]

This does say Yorkshire pubs, but is actually South Yorkshire. There is a difference you know. Sheffield thinks a bit too highly of itself. Now West Yorkshire, home of the Brontes & the Worth Valley Steam Railway, that's proper Yorkshire right there...

Obvilously though, it's only trouble makers that wear hats. Especially flat caps lol lol lol

I I was wearing a hat to go out, be it a bank, post office or pub, and I was asked to remove it, I'd just leave the premises. It's ridiculous. I can understand a balaclava being a bit suspicious, but what about a 1920s flapper hat with a peak? I think the South Yorkshire police are confusing baseball caps with flat caps lol

 

[Woodfluter]

This does say Yorkshire pubs, but is actually South Yorkshire. There is a difference you know. Sheffield thinks a bit too highly of itself. Now West Yorkshire, home of the Brontes & the Worth Valley Steam Railway, that's proper Yorkshire right there...

Obvilously though, it's only trouble makers that wear hats. Especially flat caps lol lol lol

If I was wearing a hat to go out, be it a bank, post office or pub, and I was asked to remove it, I'd just leave the premises. It's ridiculous. I can understand a balaclava being a bit suspicious, but what about a 1920s flapper hat with a peak? I think the South Yorkshire police are confusing baseball caps with flat caps lol

I'm in Atlanta Georgia, USA, but have many ancestors in Yorkshire and have visisted there. Fine folks and great country. At my branch bank, I'm not sure they'd recognize me or call me by name if I weren't wearing a hat! I feel the same as you. Sometimes bureaucracy tries to solve a problem by creating a dozen more...

- Bill

 

[Tango Yankee]

Quote from the Telegraph:She added: "There have been incidents both in pubs and other establishments when it has not been possible to identify offenders captured on CCTV because hats were hiding their faces."

Of course, you have to wonder what will be next. The UK has CCTV covering public places throughout the country--high streets, squares, malls, parking lots, etc. (IIRC the first CCTV monitoring of a public area was in Kings Lynn.)

Banning the wear of headgear on public premises is easy--there's been no law enacted. It's apparently simply the police pressuring the owners of the establishments to do so. It sets a precedence, though. At what point will an attempt be made to ban wearing hats when using an ATM? Walking down the high street? In public anywhere?

I do know of one incident when the use of CCTV was helpful for a couple of my troops. They had gone into a mall in Cambridge to do some shopping and to see a movie. A few hours after entering the mall they came out to find their car was gone. They called the police. Unfortunately, during the time they had been in the mall the car had been stolen, used in a robbery or two, and then set on fire and abandoned. The police first jumped to the conclusion that my troops had done the crimes and used the "my car was stolen" bit to cover up their involvement, despite the fact that they had receipts from shops and the theater. Fortunately, CCTV showed them getting out of the car and walking into the mall and a few minutes later other guys approaching the car, breaking into it, and driving off.

That last bit displays the weakness of CCTV, of course. There's very little monitoring of it so criminal acts cannot be addressed as they happen. It's all after the fact.

Regards,
Tom