HATCO - Could you "clear" something up?

[jimmy the lid]

The quality specifications given here are those
submitted by the Stetson hat company:
number-one quality; clear nutria; real nutria;
3X beaver; 4X beaver; 5X beaver; and 7X beaver,
which is the finest quality of hat made. It should
be borne in mind that the qualities listed run
in the order given. (There is no 6X beaver quality.)
In order to give the reader an idea as to the price
range for hats in the different quality categories,
the Laloo shown in Figure 6 is selected and the
prices are given for this hat in the following
qualities: number-one quality- $14.50; nutria- $17.00;
3X beaver- $20.00; 4X beaver- $35.00. If this
Laloo were made with a lower crown or a narrower
brim, it would cost less; and if it were made with
a wider brim or higher crown, it wold cost more.
Naturally, the larger the hat, the more it will cost.
The beavers are made of beaver fur and the others
are made of imported English and Belgian hare skins
which are blended in different grades. It takes
about two weeks to make a hat of the kind referred to
above and a lot of hand work goes into it, which
accounts for the high price.

Very interesting find. So, it looks like beaver was ahead of nutria in terms of quality. I am assuming that the 7X Beaver corresponds with Clear Beaver Quality (although the quoted passage doesn't use this term). Putting 7X beaver at the top of the list jibes with Snyder's observation that Clear Beaver hats were of the highest quality. What is a bit baffling, however, is that Clear Beaver tops the beaver grades, but Clear Nutria does not top the nutria grades.

This is a bit like trying to solve the riddle of the Sphinx...

Feltfan, does the passage you have quoted jibe with your own sense of the relative grades of felt in your own collection? I guess I was surprised to see that nutria, including Clear Nutria, came in behind all grades of beaver. Your previous descriptions have led me to believe that Clear Nutria is an extraordinary grade of felt, as is the Clear Beaver.

HATCO, thanks for your previous replies. Trying to figure out the historical origins of the terms "Clear Beaver" or "Clear Nutria" and how they were applied seems to be somewhat of a challenge, since the terms appear to have been applied to hats that were ultimately dyed. I have a theory on this, but I'll wait to hear what you find out.

In the end, however, regardless of the origins of these terms, it would be great to get a sense of what those terms came to mean from a marketing standpoint for Stetson. In other words, what were the attributes of hats that were sold under the marks "Clear Beaver" or "Clear Nutria"?


Cheers,
JtL

 

[feltfan]

Thanks feltfan, the differences you describe can be attributed the way it was pounced and have nothing to do with the amount of Nutria. But who knows, maybe hatco will be able to clear this up.

regards fedoralover

It's more than the pounce. There is a difference in
density, strength, and bashing behavior. They are
very different felts.

 

[feltfan]

Very interesting find. So, it looks like beaver was ahead of nutria in terms of quality. I am assuming that the 7X Beaver corresponds with Clear Beaver Quality (although the quoted passage doesn't use this term). Putting 7X beaver at the top of the list jibes with Snyder's observation that Clear Beaver hats were of the highest quality. What is a bit baffling, however, is that Clear Beaver tops the beaver grades, but Clear Nutria does not top the nutria grades.

I think we have to think of nutria and beaver as apples and
oranges in a way. Is a brown hat better than a blue hat?
Depends on what you're wearing. The concept of "quality" is relative.
It seems to me, as I think I've mentioned, that a nutria hat is a very strong
hat, suitable for physical work. The beaver hat was used that way,
too, but the nutria adds a dimension of strength. I wonder if it was
thought of/marketed that way back then?

Let me restate that 7x does not equal Clear Beaver Quality and
the X system is independent of the "clear" designation. I can say
that because I have a 5X Clear Beaver Stetson.

Snyder seems pretty lax, doesn't he? I'd be curious to contact
the collectors he worked with on that book. I might do so...

Feltfan, does the passage you have quoted jibe with your own sense of the relative grades of felt in your own collection? I guess I was surprised to see that nutria, including Clear Nutria, came in behind all grades of beaver. Your previous descriptions have led me to believe that Clear Nutria is an extraordinary grade of felt, as is the Clear Beaver.

Remember that I have only one example of each grade in my
collection. Not, mind you, by choice. But hats of that vintage in
those designations in my size are hard to come by. Indeed, all of
the hats we're discussing were 7 3/8 hats I stretched a bit to fit
(at least one almost fit on arrival, being of generous size). My Clear
Nutria hat remains the most amazing, at least to me, of the hats.
But how much of that is because of the way hats were assembled
in those earlier decades? Looking at the examples I have, the
Clear Beaver and Clear Nutria hats were clearly showy hats in their
day. Maybe the Nutria was used for work, too, I don't know. But the
Clear Beaver was a dress hat for sure. I will have to post it and some
others I have been accumulating soon.

The Nutria Quality hat I have
does not seem to have been dressy in any way- a practical work hat
(although a bit showy now that I had it cleaned and blocked with a
new ribbon from Optimo). It had clearly been used that way, too.
Fedoralover's recent Nutria Quality find appears to be nicer, though
it's hard to tell. One thing that throws us off is that any well built hat
from before the 1950s was so much better than what we see today
that it appears to be dressy to us.

J the L, you're just gonna have to come
out to Trader Vic's and paw these hats for yourself!

 

[surely]

This certainly is an interesting thread into the manufacturing and marketing history of Stetson. Through perseverance the real or true account may emerge. But I doubt it.
I too love to touch and compare felt; from the same mfg at different times and from different mfg. I'm sure we all have our preferences. I have a resistal beaver 100, several to die for borsalinos, but the sense to my touch of my stetson 40 is in a class by itself. Perhaps custom hatters, with years of experience, might be able to evaluate by touch.
Getting personal accounts from former employees is helpful but becoming increasingly more difficult as yrs pass. And often what went on in mfg was not necessarily what marketing or sales said.
When I was a teenager I worked in an ice cream plant. One task was to unload returns and put them into a special freezer from which certain individuals would take some to mix in with chocolate. I don't think mgt knew.
It seems to me that scientific analysis would reveal many interesting patterns. If we can "photograph" dna we should be able to microscopically photograph felt. I'd be surprised if it hasn't been done already.
Well, that's my opinion....

 

[jimmy the lid]

Let me restate that 7x does not equal Clear Beaver Quality and the X system is independent of the "clear" designation. I can say that because I have a 5X Clear Beaver Stetson.

Right you are, I lost track of that detail.

Snyder seems pretty lax, doesn't he? I'd be curious to contact the collectors he worked with on that book. I might do so...

I would love to spend some time sitting down with original Stetson materials and researching some of these issues. Snyder has a disclaimer that the book is unauthorized, so it doesn't seem that he necessarily had access to sources of information that might have been invaluable in researching his book. It's a good start, but there is still room for a much more authoritative tome.

My ClearNutria hat remains the most amazing, at least to me, of the hats. But how much of that is because of the way hats were assembled in those earlier decades? Looking at the examples I have, the Clear Beaver and Clear Nutria hats were clearly showy hats in their day. Maybe the Nutria was used for work, too, I don't know. But the Clear Beaver was a dress hat for sure. I will have to post it and some others I have been accumulating soon.

I just have to chime in and add that the felt on my 7X Clear Beaver (the Amon Carter OR) is in an entirely different league. It is dense and strong, while being super smooth. I share your curiousity about whether or not this felt went through an entirely different process, in light of the amazing uniformity of the fibers that contributes to a completely different feel.

J the L, you're just gonna have to come out to Trader Vic's and paw these hats for yourself!

Now we're talkin'! In the meantime, you may want to check out the Kona Club in Oakland, and the Forbidden Island Tiki Lounge in Alameda...


Cheers,
JtL

 

[feltfan]

Now we're talkin'! In the meantime, you may want to check out the Kona Club in Oakland, and the Forbidden Island Tiki Lounge in Alameda...

Nevermind the hats. Kona Club is about a mile from
my house. Very nice. I am once again ashamed to
report to you that I haven't had a chance to visit
Forbidden Island. But if you come to town, I promise
to bring at least three hats when I meet you there.

But only if you promise to handcuff jamespowers if he
reads about the event!

 

[RokkerMan]

great question, great info.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Nevermind the hats. Kona Club is about a mile from
my house. Very nice. I am once again ashamed to
report to you that I haven't had a chance to visit
Forbidden Island. But if you come to town, I promise
to bring at least three hats when I meet you there.

But only if you promise to handcuff jamespowers if he
reads about the event!

Done! :cheers1:


Cheers,
JtL

 

[HATCO]

i am out of the office today. The guy that I need to talk to is out until either Wedsday or Thursday. I will try to have as definitive an answer as possible.

So I just found out that the person I want to talk to will be flying in today but won't be back until tomorrow. Hopefully I can get to the bottom of this and get something conclusive.

I assume that everyone here knows a little bit about the convoluted history of the stetson name?

The gentleman I will be talking to is a third generation hatter. He worked for the Stevens Hat company when they bought the Stetson Hat Company decades ago. He never directly worked for JBS. If there is anyone that would know, it would be him

 

[feltfan]

The gentleman I will be talking to is a third generation hatter. He worked for the Stevens Hat company when they bought the Stetson Hat Company decades ago. He never directly worked for JBS. If there is anyone that would know, it would be him

Looking forward to it, thanks so much.

I have a couple of outstanding Stevens hats, too,
though nothing like the Clear Beaver or Clear Nutria.
They made some great dress fedoras.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Bump!

Before this thread gets lost in the shuffle, I'm bumping it. Hopefully, we'll be hearing back from HATCO on some of the open questions here.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[HATCO]

Hello all,


Sorry for the long absence! I got so caught up in the lounge I let some of my work fall by the wayside! I had to catch up.

Well, I talked to a number of people about the clear designation.

First a little bit of background that I'm sure many of you are aware of but some may not.

Stetson as a hat manufacturing company disappeared decades ago. I'm writing this from home so I'm not sure of the exact year but I want to say 1970. Anyway Stevens Hats out of St Joseph Missouri bought out Stetson.

From what I understand they bought the name and equipment but not the factory in Philadelphia. I am unaware of anyone coming from Philadelphia to work in St Joseph.

In the 80's Hatco bought Stevens Hats and therefore Stetson. Regardless there is no one at Hatco from Philadelphia. So I went to the closest source I knew. The man who orchestrated the buyout of Stetson.

I will call him GR. I'm sure many of you know his name, but I didn't ask him if I could use it, so I will just use his initials. I showed GR the pictures of the logo. He had not been included when I originally got my first answer.

GR is a third generation hatter. He started working in a hat factory when he was 13 in the 1930s.

GR's interpretation of Clear Nutria was "100% true Nutria, not a blend"

He had the same feeling about Beaver.

As far as he remembers they never used that die at Stevens Hats or at Hatco. He's sure that we still have the die.

I know you guys are looking for 100% verifiable proof of what "clear nutria" and "clear beaver" mean. I know this isn't the end all be all answer that you were looking for but as you know Stetson has had a wide and varied history. Short of finding someone alive from the factory in Philadelphia or grinding up a hat to test the fibers (please don't do that) I think this mystery is still open.

 

[fedoralover]

Thanks for the info, very informative. What about the one I just posted a pic of that says "Nutria Quality" would that be the same as Clear Nutria and just a marketing thing to have a slightly different name or was it indicative of something else.

fedoralover

 

[J.T.Marcus]

Welcome back, Hatco. Thank-you for helping us in our quest for knowledge!:eusa_clap

 

[Absinthe_1900]

I was curious if there was a surviving original Stratoliner hat pin lurking in the company archives, and if possible could we see a picture to document what one actually looks like?

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

Thank you very much!

I wonder if someone from Classic Style Magazine could interview GR? I'll bet it would make a great article!

 

[fatwoul]

...Short of finding someone alive from the factory in Philadelphia or grinding up a hat to test the fibers (please don't do that) I think this mystery is still open.

Here's an idea:

• Find an old Stetson on eBay or in a yard sale.
  
• Stitch a little label in the headband that says "This hat belongs to Jimmy Hoffa", and rub some soil into the felt.
  
• Send it to the FBI and tell them your dog brought it in the house.
  
• Let them do all sorts of tests on it, and see what they find.

OK, that bit was a joke, but the idea of not knowing what the hat is made of is a scientifically irritating one - like when the roof of your mouth itches, only worse. Surely one of the hatters here (with all their experience of beaver felts) could look, rub, or lick the Stetson in question and be able to make an educated guess as to the felt content.

 

[deanglen]

I believe you could shave off some felt with a disposable razor and have it analyzed. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=438110&in_page_id=1811


dean

 

[J.T.Marcus]

Here's an idea:

• Find an old Stetson on eBay or in a yard sale.
  
• Stitch a little label in the headband that says "This hat belongs to Jimmy Hoffa", and rub some soil into the felt.
  
• Send it to the FBI and tell them your dog brought it in the house.
  
• Let them do all sorts of tests on it, and see what they find.

You, sir, are a wit of the first order! lol lol lol lol

 

[jimmy the lid]

I know you guys are looking for 100% verifiable proof of what "clear nutria" and "clear beaver" mean. I know this isn't the end all be all answer that you were looking for but as you know Stetson has had a wide and varied history. Short of finding someone alive from the factory in Philadelphia or grinding up a hat to test the fibers (please don't do that) I think this mystery is still open.

Thanks for your efforts, HATCO. Much appreciated!

Cheers,
JtL