HATCO - Could you "clear" something up?

[jimmy the lid]

Mr. Range --

I'm wondering if you might be able to address a question that's come up here in the past -- namely, what does the designation "Clear Beaver Quality" mean relative to a Stetson hat? (Ditto for "Clear Nutria Quality").

Does the term "clear" mean that the fur is a natural color and not dyed? Or, did the term "Clear Beaver" in and of itself denote a particular quality or grade of felt? How did Stetson use this term?

Anything you could do to provide some "clarity" on this issue would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Dinerman]

Clear beaver carried a 7x designation back in the day, and I believe clear nutria had a 10x.
Clear beaver (at least the one I have) is undyed pure beaver felt. It has kind of a light creme color to it

 

[jimmy the lid]

Right you are, Dman. That's pretty much where we left off in this thread. I'm wondering if Hatco may be able to shed some more light on this from a historical perspective.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

Range, not Strange. fftopic:

 

[jimmy the lid]

OOPS!

OK, color me embarassed. Maybe I was thinking of Curtis Strange (the golfer) -- anyway, I knew I should have had more coffee before posting this morning.[huh]

Thanks for the kick save, Tony...I have now edited my previous post accordingly.


Cheers,
JtL

 

[jimmy the lid]

Curiouser and curiouser...

I spent some time this afternoon paging through Snyder's "Stetson Hats" book to see if there were any more clues on the "Clear Beaver/Clear Nutria" mystery. Things have become a bit more interesting...

Previously, I had thought that "clear" might be a reference to the "undyed" nature of the felt. This was largely based on the following statement by Snyder on page 33 of his book: "Hats marked by Stetson with the phrase 'Clear Beaver' were also of the highest quality, manufactured from pure, undyed beaver fur." This seemed to jibe with photographs of Clear Beaver hats featured here on the Lounge, including my own.

This afternoon, however, I found some photographic evidence that raises some questions. On page 13, there is a black western hat, dating from 1914, with "Clear Nutria" stamped into the sweatband. Pages 102 and 103, respectively, have photographs of two different hats, both white in color, and both having the "Clear Nutria" mark stamped onto the sweatband. Sure doesn't seem like "clear" is being used to describe color in these instances.

Looking forward to any illumination Mr. Range may be able to provide...


Cheers,
JtL

 

[feltfan]

Clear beaver carried a 7x designation back in the day, and I believe clear nutria had a 10x.
Clear beaver (at least the one I have) is undyed pure beaver felt. It has kind of a light creme color to it

I have a white "clear beaver" that is a 5X and a
light brown/tan "clear nutria" (pictured on this site) that carries no Xs at all.

I think the Xs meant something not directly
tied to the "clear" designation and the color
also appears not to be directly related.

This is why I asked in the first thread from HATCO
about the "clear" beaver/nutria felt and how it was
manufactured.

 

[HATCO]

Mr. Range --

I'm wondering if you might be able to address a question that's come up here in the past -- namely, what does the designation "Clear Beaver Quality" mean relative to a Stetson hat? (Ditto for "Clear Nutria Quality").

Does the term "clear" mean that the fur is a natural color and not dyed? Or, did the term "Clear Beaver" in and of itself denote a particular quality or grade of felt? How did Stetson use this term?

Anything you could do to provide some "clarity" on this issue would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers,
JtL

Here is what I was able to get out of the hatters.

Clear Nutria and Clear Beaver was a bleached hat body before it was dyed. Years later at the request of hat retailers, manufacturers started adding slight tints to the bodies to give a uniform color across the hat while still maintaining the clear designation. I imagine that "clear" at that point had become a marketing term.

A natural color hat means unbleached and undyed.

Natural color hats can be different shades and tones depending on the fur blends as well as where the pelt came from. In westerns I can think of at least 3 or more different shades of natural we have.

 

[fedoralover]

Thanks for the info, but could you also please let us know what stetson thought of the quality level of the Nutria fur felt? Was on the same par as the beaver or less? Also, were the Nutria felts blends or pure? Also, there are hats marked Clear Nutria and the one I just bought says "Nutria Quality". Is there any difference?

much thanks fedoralover

 

[Mark George]

Thanks for the info, Mr. Range. Do the hatters have any information about hats labeled "Nutria Quality?" Any actual nutria in there? Or was it a finish only?

 

[HATCO]

Thanks for the info, Mr. Range. Do the hatters have any information about hats labeled "Nutria Quality?" Any actual nutria in there? Or was it a finish only?

I will see if I can find out. I can tell you that in our current hat with nutria in it, is a blend and not a finish.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Many thanks for your reply, HATCO. I just want to make sure I understand correctly...

Clear Nutria and Clear Beaver was a bleached hat body before it was dyed.

OK, so it seems that the "Clear" designation had to do with the fact that the felt was initially bleached. Did this lead to superior or more uniform results once the hat was dyed? Is it fair to say that, as a general matter, most hats were not initially bleached, thus the "Clear Nutria" or "Clear Beaver" denoted hats that had been processed differently?

Years later at the request of hat retailers, manufacturers started adding slight tints to the bodies to give a uniform color across the hat while still maintaining the clear designation.

I'm not sure I understand this one. Do you mean that, instead of bleaching the felt, slight tints were added to the felt as a substitute for the bleaching process? Was the tinted felt then dyed further?

I imagine that "clear" at that point had become a marketing term.

Did "Clear Beaver" also indicate that the hat was "pure" beaver? Put differently, was the bleaching process applied to pure beaver or nutria felts, as opposed to blends? Thus, would it be fair to say that the designation "Clear Beaver" or "Clear Nutria" would have only been applied to pure beaver or nutria felts?

Many thanks for any further info you can provide.


Cheers,
JtL

 

[HATCO]

OK, so it seems that the "Clear" designation had to do with the fact that the felt was initially bleached. Did this lead to superior or more uniform results once the hat was dyed?

YES

Is it fair to say that, as a general matter, most hats were not initially bleached, thus the "Clear Nutria" or "Clear Beaver" denoted hats that had been processed differently?

AFIAK regarding pastels the answer is no. The bodies had to be bleached before they were tinted. With a darker color like black I do not know yet but I imagine that they would also be bleached before being dyed in order to have a more uniform color. I will have to ask about the darks to get a more detailed answer.

I'm not sure I understand this one. Do you mean that, instead of bleaching the felt, slight tints were added to the felt as a substitute for the bleaching process? Was the tinted felt then dyed further?

Clear was originally an internal term to denote that a body had been bleached and was ready to be dyed. Somewhere along the line someone thought they could sell "Clear" body hats. As far as the tints....The hat bodies were still bleached but then slight tints were added to subtly change the color. "Clear" as a marketing term meant something back in the day so even though it wasn't technically "Clear" it was marketed as such.

Did "Clear Beaver" also indicate that the hat was "pure" beaver? Put differently, was the bleaching process applied to pure beaver or nutria felts, as opposed to blends? Thus, would it be fair to say that the designation "Clear Beaver" or "Clear Nutria" would have only been applied to pure beaver or nutria felts?

I do not know yet I will try to find out.

 

[feltfan]

Interesting...

...but I'm not sure it's accurate.

Have a look at the Clear Nutria hat here:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=176675&postcount=1

That's an old hat. 1920s I would guess.
It's on my head as I type this, so I can tell
you it's not bleached white. The box has a
tag in it that indicates a "Buckskin Nut" color.
As I recall, Dinerman has a Clear Beaver that
is also not white. Jamespowers has a rather
dark "Clear Nutria" hat:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=20398&postcount=25

Why say "clear" when they could have said, "bleached"?

I have always assumed that "clear" meant that the felt
was all one fiber. The felt on my clear nutria and clear
beaver hats is remarkably uniform and fine.

 

[HATCO]

...but I'm not sure it's accurate.

Have a look at the Clear Nutria hat here:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=176675&postcount=1

That's an old hat. 1920s I would guess.
It's on my head as I type this, so I can tell
you it's not bleached white. The box has a
tag in it that indicates a "Buckskin Nut" color.
As I recall, Dinerman has a Clear Beaver that
is also not white. Jamespowers has a rather
dark "Clear Nutria" hat:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=20398&postcount=25

Why say "clear" when they could have said, "bleached"?

I have always assumed that "clear" meant that the felt
was all one fiber. The felt on my clear nutria and clear
beaver hats is remarkably uniform and fine.

Thanks I will show this and see what I find out

 

[HATCO]

i am out of the office today. The guy that I need to talk to is out until either Wedsday or Thursday. I will try to have as definitive an answer as possible.

 

[feltfan]

Very much appreciate the effort. Nice to get some help from
Stetson on these mysteries...

Here is a clue I found doing a Google search. I came across
"The Cowboy at Work", by Fay E. Ward
Originally published in 1958
http://tinyurl.com/yvbtwe

There are copies available on Amazon, Alibris, etc.
Mine is now on its way!

And here is a quote I typed in from page 240:

The quality specifications given here are those
submitted by the Stetson hat company:
number-one quality; clear nutria; real nutria;
3X beaver; 4X beaver; 5X beaver; and 7X beaver,
which is the finest quality of hat made. It should
be borne in mind that the qualities listed run
in the order given. (There is no 6X beaver quality.)
In order to give the reader an idea as to the price
range for hats in the different quality categories,
the Laloo shown in Figure 6 is selected and the
prices are given for this hat in the following
qualities: number-one quality- $14.50; nutria- $17.00;
3X beaver- $20.00; 4X beaver- $35.00. If this
Laloo were made with a lower crown or a narrower
brim, it would cost less; and if it were made with
a wider brim or higher crown, it wold cost more.
Naturally, the larger the hat, the more it will cost.
The beavers are made of beaver fur and the others
are made of imported English and Belgian hare skins
which are blended in different grades. It takes
about two weeks to make a hat of the kind referred to
above and a lot of hand work goes into it, which
accounts for the high price.

 

[fedoralover]

Interesting feltfan, but now I have to wonder what the quality difference is, if any, between hats that are labeled clear nutria; real nutria, or like mine that says "Nutria Quality"? Any clues??

fedoralover

 

[feltfan]

Interesting feltfan, but now I have to wonder what the quality difference is, if any, between hats that are labeled clear nutria; real nutria, or like mine that says "Nutria Quality"? Any clues??

fedoralover

I think I've shared all the clues I have.
I've never seen a "Real Nutria" hat, seen a
photograph, or even heard of anyone who has one.
I have a Nutria Quality (probably from the 40s)
and a Clear Nutria (probably from the 20s) and
the felt is about as different as vintage felt can get.
The Nutria Quality is rough while the Clear Nutria
is very fine. Both are very strong felt. Wish I could
post magnified photos, but...

 

[fedoralover]

Thanks feltfan, the differences you describe can be attributed the way it was pounced and have nothing to do with the amount of Nutria. But who knows, maybe hatco will be able to clear this up.

regards fedoralover