Hatband do's and don'ts

[Winston Carter]

I agree Winston, I like the cloth ribbon much better too. My cowboy days are about over! BUT, I have this one idea and I'm really looking for a wide but very thin leather for a ribbon.

You can buy tooled strips of leather and design your own. Very satisfying making something custom.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Any know of leather bands that are wide (1, 1 1/2 inches) but that are also very thin like typical cloth or fabric ribbons seen on many fedoras?

You could never get real leather that wide skived that thin so that it would lay around the crown & not pucker and buckle around the top.

DD is the resident leather worker here. Maybe get his opinion.

 

[Winston Carter]

Agreed. I'll have to keep my one old black Resistol with the horsehair band, otherwise I'm trending toward the Open Roads with the thin band...or the wide ribbons as you mentioned.

Horse hair over a wide ribbon looks good. Man the possibilities are endless.

 

[Just Jim]

Just to be perfectly clear the top hats pictured do not belong to me, so I have no dog in your fight. These are auction pictures represented to be authentic. But if you knew anything about beads & beading it is easy to tell these hats are not fakes or reproductions & have age to them.

I've been toying with the idea of beading my top hat since I acquired it 20+ years ago: I like the look. I've no desire to create a fake, and the only way I'd try to do a reproduction would be if I had the original I was copying on my bench to study as I worked.

On the half-dozen or so originals I've handled (including two I did some stabilization work on), the beadwork sewn directly on the hat body was limited to the edge of the brim. (The hatband is beaded separately, then sewn or glued-and-sewn in place.) The brim edges had a strip of buckskin added, and some of the beading stitches did go through the buckskin, but I thought the leather edging was there to give body to the edge of the hat. The examples you showed have beadwork on the sides of the crown, which is causing me to reconsider.

I lack familiarity with felt like this when it was new, so I wonder if the felt on the sides of the crown was seen as strong enough to hold the weight of the beads on the stitches, or if the felt was "backed" with a piece of buckskin on the interior in order to secure the stitches and support the weight of the beads. This leads me to wonder if the buckskin I observed on the edges served an additional purpose in reinforcing the felt edge.

So, um, yeah. . . I know enough about beadwork to get me in trouble, and enough about artificially aging reproductions and restoration work to have fooled a few people. And I'm skeptical enough to not believe any claims of authenticity without pretty solid provenance.

 

[suitedcboy]

I must be an abused spouse. Every time I look through topics and see this one my brain sees it as "Husband do's and don'ts"......

 

[Desert dog]

Just to be perfectly clear the top hats pictured do not belong to me, so I have no dog in your fight. These are auction pictures represented to be authentic. But if you knew anything about beads & beading it is easy to tell these hats are not fakes or reproductions & have age to them.

It was common in the late 19th century for various Chiefs & medicine men of the great tribes to wear such beaded top hats during ceremonies. When the 12 Great War Chiefs & the Ponca delegation visited Washington DC in 1877 at President Grant's invitation & accepted Peace Medals from him, some Chiefs were wearing just such hats. There are original pictures taken that day, in the Smithsonian.

Besides the books below such pictures have also been published in books on numenistic coin collecting that I am not familiar with to know their names. I would refer you to the following:

Indian Peace Medals Issued in the United States, 1789-1889, (N. Flayderman & Co, 1966) by Bauman L. Belden

Indian Peace Medals in American History, (University of Oklahoma Press, 1995) by Francis Paul Prucha

Interesting point on the peace medals, I will have to look that up. My 5th great grandfather, Chickasaw leader, Piominko, received a peace medal from George Washinton. The medal showed up at a large auction house, obviously stolen from his grave in the 1950s, during a construction project. The tribe is in litigation over ownership of the medal.

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[Hurricane Jack]

I've been toying with the idea of beading my top hat since I acquired it 20+ years ago: I like the look. I've no desire to create a fake, and the only way I'd try to do a reproduction would be if I had the original I was copying on my bench to study as I worked.

On the half-dozen or so originals I've handled (including two I did some stabilization work on), the beadwork sewn directly on the hat body was limited to the edge of the brim. (The hatband is beaded separately, then sewn or glued-and-sewn in place.) The brim edges had a strip of buckskin added, and some of the beading stitches did go through the buckskin, but I thought the leather edging was there to give body to the edge of the hat. The examples you showed have beadwork on the sides of the crown, which is causing me to reconsider.

I lack familiarity with felt like this when it was new, so I wonder if the felt on the sides of the crown was seen as strong enough to hold the weight of the beads on the stitches, or if the felt was "backed" with a piece of buckskin on the interior in order to secure the stitches and support the weight of the beads. This leads me to wonder if the buckskin I observed on the edges served an additional purpose in reinforcing the felt edge.

So, um, yeah. . . I know enough about beadwork to get me in trouble, and enough about artificially aging reproductions and restoration work to have fooled a few people. And I'm skeptical enough to not believe any claims of authenticity without pretty solid provenance.

I have never owned one or even handled many top hats. But isn't it true that by the mid to late 19th century that due to the declining beaver population using felted beaver fur in top hats had been replaced by silk plush? And that silk top hats are generally quite firm & strong? It is hard to tell in pictures of these two hats but the black hat in particular would appear to be well worn silk & not a soft hat, easily supporting crown beading. And the beading would appear to be made up of vegetable dyed seed beads & not plastic or glass beads unavailable during the 19th century.

Along those same lines here is a hat from the late 19th century trimmed with dyed porcupine quills. Every quill I have ever handled when dried out is quite brittle & sharp. I have wondered how quills could be soaked & prepped to be bent around the brim edge.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Interesting point on the peace medals, I will have to look that up. My 5th great grandfather, Chickasaw leader, Piominko, received a peace medal from George Washinton. The medal showed up at a large auction house, obviously stolen from his grave in the 1950s, during a construction project. The tribe is in litigation over ownership of the medal.

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Interesting DD. Peace Metals are quite interesting & I have been interested in them from the Native American aspect for a long time. Coin & token collectors are interested in them as well. The two books I listed are reference books at a local library & therefore can not be checked out. You might can find them in a reference library in your area.

 

[Desert dog]

You could never get real leather that wide skived that thin so that it would lay around the crown & not pucker and buckle around the top.

DD is the resident leather worker here. Maybe get his opinion.

Just my opinion but, a ribbon that wide has to be swirled, to lay flat. I think you would have to make a pattern using something like a ribbon, that has been swirled to fit the hat. Transfer that to the leather, so it is cut to the same curve as the ribbon. It would take a much wider piece of leather than the band, to accommodate the curve. I haven't done this, but that's how I would approach it.

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[alanfgag]

I have never owned one or even handled many top hats. But isn't it true that by the mid to late 19th century that due to the declining beaver population using felted beaver fur in top hats had been replaced by silk plush? And that silk top hats are generally quite firm & strong? It is hard to tell in pictures of these two hats but the black hat in particular would appear to be well worn silk & not a soft hat, easily supporting crown beading...

Correct. Virtually all top hats that appear on the vintage marker are covered in polished silk plush. It was the fashion for the form from mid 1800s on, but whether the popularity of silk plush grew out of a scarcity of beavers, or had responsibility for the scarcity of beavers, I do not know. I've read it both ways. The silk plush is applied over a rigid form so while the surface itself is subject to wear, the overall structure is quite light and sturdy and should be a good base for embellishment, I would think.

 

[alanfgag]

Interesting DD. Peace Metals are quite interesting & I have been interested in them from the Native American aspect for a long time. Coin & token collectors are interested in them as well. The two books I listed are reference books at a local library & therefore can not be checked out. You might can find them in a reference library in your area.

An auction item that ended recently - Buchanan 1857 on this peace medal. I couldn't determine the age of the medal. I believe they are still minted today. This one is 3" in diameter and very heavy. I got distracted by other items and did not bid on it.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

An auction item that ended recently - Buchanan 1857 on this peace medal. I couldn't determine the age of the medal. I believe they are still minted today. This one is 3" in diameter and very heavy. I got distracted by other items and did not bid on it.

View attachment 144470

For a long time I thought I would like to collect peace medals but I must refrain.

 

[Winston Carter]

I must be an abused spouse. Every time I look through topics and see this one my brain sees it as "Husband do's and don'ts"......

Definitely got your wife on your mind. They have a way of doing that.

 

[TikiOneTwo]

In my experience, hat bands are what gives a hat it's unique "personality" . I have changed one hat band out for another and totally changed the hat's look. I have had hats that have drawn zero attention become the center of a conversation just by changing out the hat band. Hat bands options are nearly endless. I really don't believe there is a "right" answer.

That's true.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Stetson No. 1 Quality in the Californio style, with 1930's intricate 8-loop rawhide hatband by Luis B. Ortega. Few Ortega hatbands are known to exist.

1950's Edward H. Bohlin hatband with classic solid silver spots & 3 piece Ranger buckle set.

 

[Bamaboots]

Stetson No. 1 Quality in the Californio style, with 1930's intricate 8-loop rawhide hatband by Luis B. Ortega. Few Ortega hatbands are known to exist.

View attachment 145211

1950's Edward H. Bohlin hatband with classic solid silver spots & 3 piece Ranger buckle set.

View attachment 145210

Two fine pieces, HJ. I've always been fascinated with leather/rawhide braiding. Get above three strands and I'm lost. I don't know much about Ortega other than a little online reading and viewing his pieces over the years. Incredible stuff.

I went and re-read a few things after you posted that and was struck by a couple of things. The first was that he advanced enough in his craft to make a 24 strand set of reins and this quote about passing along the knowledge of his craft to others.

"I use a process which I have developed over the years, and when I die, it all goes with me. I guess it's too bad, but I think if a person wants to know these things, he can take the dedication and time to learn them as I did."

 

[Mustang Mike's Hats]

Stetson No. 1 Quality in the Californio style, with 1930's intricate 8-loop rawhide hatband by Luis B. Ortega. Few Ortega hatbands are known to exist.

That's a really nice piece! I'd love to see one in the flesh, so to speak!!

 

[Winston Carter]

Stetson No. 1 Quality in the Californio style, with 1930's intricate 8-loop rawhide hatband by Luis B. Ortega. Few Ortega hatbands are known to exist.

View attachment 145211

1950's Edward H. Bohlin hatband with classic solid silver spots & 3 piece Ranger buckle set.

View attachment 145210

I actually like the 2nd pick better with wore out ribbon and worn leather band.

 

[Mustang Mike's Hats]

@wilson Carter Send more pix!!!

 

[gtdean48]

In my experience, hat bands are what gives a hat it's unique "personality" . I have changed one hat band out for another and totally changed the hat's look. I have had hats that have drawn zero attention become the center of a conversation just by changing out the hat band. Hat bands options are nearly endless. I really don't believe there is a "right" answer.

+1
I have a hook full of bands, leather, cloth, cords, skins, etc., & change out bands on western & dress hats as the mood strikes me....none of them very wide tho...whatever cocks your pistol...