Hat Stiffeners

[gtdean48]

I have a couple westerns that I may consider for conversions. How would I get the stiffener out of the brims?

I've used a 50/50 mixture of distilled water & rubbing alcohol. Soak the brim liberally & then work the brim with your hands.
Let it dry slowly. The brim is more flexible.

 

[T Jones]

I've used a 50/50 mixture of distilled water & rubbing alcohol. Soak the brim liberally & then work the brim with your hands.
Let it dry slowly. The brim is more flexible.

Would I lose much of the dyed color?

 

[gtdean48]

Would I lose much of the dyed color?

Not sure since ones I did were silverbelly. I didn't get any fading or run off....

 

[John Galt]

See my warning in the convo corral about acetate in ribbon.

 

[Brother cavefish]

See my warning in the convo corral about acetate in ribbon.

awe yes the ribbon is the factor for sure-- as far as rubbing alcohol that is usually the ingredients in the stiffeners

 

[tonyb]

Softening a stiff hat often isn't so much a matter of removing the stiffener as breaking it down.

Verifying the following would take knowledge and diagnostic equipment far beyond what I bring to this discussion at present, but my experience strongly suggests that because the stiffening agent "reactivates" when heated, it isn't departing the felt but rather breaking down with use. Heat apparently causes the broken-up bits to flow and knit together and present a unified front to the world. Flanging a brim, using a heated sandbagger or an iron, almost always stiffens it. Ironing the crown on the block does the same thing.

 

[Brother cavefish]

Does not just wearing it in the rain break it down

 

[Joao Encarnado]

Does not just wearing it in the rain break it down

Or soaking it in water? I have a hat I washed in water and it's pretty floppy. I still didn't apply heat to it to reactivate the stiffner.

 

[T Jones]

Or soaking it in water? I have a hat I washed in water and it's pretty floppy. I still didn't apply heat to it to reactivate the stiffner.

I thought of that one too. The brims on the Stagecoaches, as you may well know already, are pretty stiff....and they're dyed up pretty good too. The dye from these hats really rinses out when you put water over them. I'm just wondering how much of the color I would lose on a darker one as opposed to something like a Silverbelly. I'm also wondering if just soaking in water would loosen up the brim.

 

[John Galt]

It is my understanding that lacquer is not water soluble, so rain should neither break it down nor wash it away. I imagine that the heat that softens the lacquer also allows it to reform more soundly...

 

[Joao Encarnado]

I thought of that one too. The brims on the Stagecoaches, as you may well know already, are pretty stiff....and they're dyed up pretty good too. The dye from these hats really rinses out when you put water over them. I'm just wondering how much of the color I would lose on a darker one as opposed to something like a Silverbelly. I'm also wondering if just soaking in water would loosen up the brim.

The hat I wetted is white (at least is looks white) so I can't tell if it lost dye.

I have a brown Stetson buffalo collection with a very soft and flexible brim and I bought another of those buffalo (maybe more modern but in black) and it's stiff as a board (John Galt handled it before I did) thinking it would be as soft as the first one. It's a really nice hat and it have not yet loose it's shape! Sadly is a size 7...

 

[viclip]

It is my understanding that lacquer is not water soluble, so rain should neither break it down nor wash it away. I imagine that the heat that softens the lacquer also allows it to reform more soundly...

Do we know roughly the date when shellac was replaced by lacquer as the stiffening agent? This would have some bearing on the softening routine used for a vintage vs. modern hat.

 

[gtdean48]

The way I learned it is water does not bind with the stiffener, namely shellac. It will cause the shellac to weaken but when heated the shellac "reactivates" & stiffens back up. The water evaporating doesn't take shellac with it. Alcohol binds with the shellac & when it evaporates, takes shellac molecules with it, not all but some = a softer brim even after steaming. JMHO....

 

[Brad Bowers]

Do we know roughly the date when shellac was replaced by lacquer as the stiffening agent? This would have some bearing on the softening routine used for a vintage vs. modern hat.

Shellac has been used throughout the entirety of the twentieth century, and probably much earlier. I don't know that lacquer has ever been used to stiffen hats. Both come from the Lac bug in India, though they use different solvents.

Brad

 

[viclip]

I know a little bit about working with shellac from my vintage fountain pen restoration activities. It's used as an adhesive &/or sealant for things like rubber bladders & the front sections of pens.

Shellac isn't waterproof although it is somewhat water-resistant. Water can be considered to be a mild solvent of shellac.

Shellac is made with alcohol as its carrier. Alcohol will dissolve shellac at any time & from time to time regardless of age.

Ammonia will also dissolve shellac. In pen repair it can be used in place of alcohol to remove shellac in situations where alcohol attacks the material e.g. vintage celluloid is hazed by alcohol but not by ammonia. This of course raises interesting possibilities in as much as some hat dyes may be attacked by alcohol but not by ammonia & vice versa.

Shellac can be melted or re-melted at any time by the application of dry heat, its melting point is about 140 degrees Fahrenheit. The typical hair dryer will attain that level, embossing guns & heat guns can go much higher with obvious risks.

Personally I've never used alcohol or ammonia solutions on hats nor have I ever attempted to use heat on fur felt. I'd want to experiment first on scrap brim cuttings or even a scrap hat.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Denatured alcohol shouldn't be a problem on hats, as that's what hat manufacturers have always used as a solvent for applying their shellac.

Brad

 

[John Galt]

I misspoke, I meant to say shellac - it's a mistake I seem prone to make...

 

[viclip]

I misspoke, I meant to say shellac - it's a mistake I seem prone to make...

thx for the clarification, no harm done

 

[Pa Fig]

If you were to take your fur felt hat under a microscope, it would look like millions of little fibers grabbing one another in a chaotic yet unifying process. When you tease fur over heat with moisture and tensions - felt is created.

So in order to restore a fur felt hat, it takes good quality steam - know how - a couple weeks at least of steam and rest & steam and rest etc.

Deep cleaning the hat also helps to regain body - as steaming a hat softens the grip of the fiber and dirt can be surfaced and removed. Microscopic dirt can interfere with the space between fibers - thus creating a softer hat. In addition to good cleaning, the steam, when properly applied - helps to revitalize the strength & grip of the fibers - reconstituting body in the hat as it cools & fibers tighten.

Of course water and just use are going to loosen the grip of the felt fibers - make it softer - as both of these environmental conditions play a factor in the "softening" of a hat.

My theory is that any spray on anything for hats just coats the fibers, makes them lethargic & unable to perform - you might get some rigidity at first, but the first play of nature or repetition of hands is going to bring undesirable effects, softening, stain, etc: especially in the realm of natural and pastel colored fedoras.

 

[John Galt]

If you were to take your fur felt hat under a microscope, it would look like millions of little fibers grabbing one another in a chaotic yet unifying process. When you tease fur over heat with moisture and tensions - felt is created.

So in order to restore a fur felt hat, it takes good quality steam - know how - a couple weeks at least of steam and rest & steam and rest etc.

Deep cleaning the hat also helps to regain body - as steaming a hat softens the grip of the fiber and dirt can be surfaced and removed. Microscopic dirt can interfere with the space between fibers - thus creating a softer hat. In addition to good cleaning, the steam, when properly applied - helps to revitalize the strength & grip of the fibers - reconstituting body in the hat as it cools & fibers tighten.

Of course water and just use are going to loosen the grip of the felt fibers - make it softer - as both of these environmental conditions play a factor in the "softening" of a hat.

My theory is that any spray on anything for hats just coats the fibers, makes them lethargic & unable to perform - you might get some rigidity at first, but the first play of nature or repetition of hands is going to bring undesirable effects, softening, stain, etc: especially in the realm of natural and pastel colored fedoras.

Pretty decent analysis. Detergent also helps with the felting process, although I cannot recall the mechanism. Motion would seem to help the fibers bind, as it is the wet heat & kneading motion on the battery that makes the fibers felt in the first place.