HAT ADORNMENTS: ribbons, bows, pins, pugs, leather, etc.

[TipTop]

TipTop - I've owned sterling hatbands before, and they look just fine on silverbelly hats as well. Just be careful, because like any silver jewelry, they will tarnish, especially in heat or humidity, and may leave marks on the felt. Mine were always on cowboy hats, placed over the original ribbon, and I wasn't worried about any stains or marks. I usually had to sew a loop through one of the holes, back to the felt to make sure it didn't come off my hat if I happened to come off my horse. That's a nice one you bought, and looks like you got it for a good price. Frank

Thanks Frank, you responded exactly to my speculation, posted in an earlier thread, about tarnish and securing it. Yes, i think the price was right, but the proof will arrive as pudding Tuesday...Will post results. thx.

 

[TipTop]

Can't wait to see it on your choice of hat, TipTop!

I thought this Mallory Torino was begging to be re-adorned, and so replaced the original feather and found a new home for the Derringer. Thanks for the info on that little pin, everyone. Do any of you have real-life examples of something similar?

Anybody have names for all the cool bows that have been pictured?

A gross of grosgrains.

 

[Rabbit]

Anybody have names for all the cool bows that have been pictured?

This type is known by the name of shark's gill bow. More often than not, it is accompanied by a windcord.

(Resistol Kitten Finish Beaver Twenty)

The pleats can be open towards either the front or the rear side throughout.
They can also go in both directions, meeting at a wider pleat in the middle (box bow), sometimes with a simple X (stitched at the four corner points) on such a wide pleat right in the middle.

 

[job]

Cool hat and accessories Bowlerman.

Great hat Rabbit. Could you show some of what you are describing with this ribbon.

 

[Rabbit]

Great hat Rabbit. Could you show some of what you are describing with this ribbon.

This Resistol is the only hat in my possesion that has any kind of pleated bow, so I'll borrow some pics from D'Guy and one other lounger (can't recall the name, sorry).
Hope you don't mind, Gents.

The Resistol has a shark's gill ribbon with the "gills" (the single pleats, that is) being open toward the rear side.

On this VS, the "gills" are open towards the front side. They also happen to be slanted but that is very unusual and apparently very difficult to achieve. I don't think a hatter would be too keen to replicate this.

The two pics below show VS's from D'Guy with box bows. The pleats meet in the middle, where a wider pleat is trimmed with an X.

Of course, all of these would be called pleated bows as a generic term.

 

[Rabbit]

Pleated ribbons were never really common. Here's one from one of The Thin Man films. The pleats appear to be going toward the rear (as on my Resistol).

 

[DJH]

Vintage Lockheed Constellation on Stetson 7XCB

Vintage Stratoliner on a Stratoliner

 

[job]

A leather band on a panapore straw Tesi Comet.

 

[Mystic]

I've looked through several threads about ribbons and haven't quite found a clear answer.

What are the differences between grosgrain and petersham.

I noticed the edge on petersham seems to be different or maybe just the pertersham I've seen.

Seems the experienced hat wearers on FL can explain things in the clearest terms and fewest words.

 

[Rabbit]

What are the differences between grosgrain and petersham.

Like you said, the difference is in the ribbon's border.

May I introduce...

Mr. Grosgrain:

Mr. Petersham:

Grosgrain ribbons are the standard for men's hats. Petersham ribbons are rarely seen (they're more associated with women's hats); some casual styles may work with this type of ribbon. The Stetson Playboy was often adorned with a Petersham ribbon (prove me wrong here, I'm not absolutely sure whether the ribbons I've seen on Playboys were the original ones).

 

[job]

Edit.

 

[Mystic]

Like you said, the difference is in the ribbon's border.

May I introduce...

Mr. Grosgrain:

Mr. Petersham:

Great answer......a picture is worth a thousand words......

material is the same, it's just "cosmetic"?

 

[Rabbit]

material is the same, it's just "cosmetic"?

The material is basically the same, yes. In this particular example, however, the grosgrain ribbon is vintage while the petersham ribbon is modern. But that was not what you wanted to know.
However, your question brings up two more little topics:

Vintage versus modern ribbon:
Ribbons are made from a combination of cotton and rayon. The rayon, being a semi-synthetic, used to be made from wood pulp (until, I believe, sometime in the 1960s). Nowadays it's produced synthetically right from the start.
That has changed the properties of the material: it conforms less to the crown shape and the folding of the bow, and it has a different sheen. Vintage ribbon has a beautiful, very subtle sheen to it which lacks in modern ribbon.

Ribbon surface - the "ripples", if you will:
The ripples can be slightly coarser or finer. The latter usually is seen on high-quality vintage ribbon.
I'm not sure but it seems to me that Petersham ribbons tend to have slightly coarser ripples, which does harmonize with the border treatment of this type of ribbon. Of course, there is also variation of the ribbon surface in grosgrain ribbons.

 

[Mystic]

The material is basically the same, yes. In this particular example, however, the grosgrain ribbon is vintage while the petersham ribbon is modern. But that was not what you wanted to know.
However, your question brings up two more little topics:

Vintage versus modern ribbon:
Ribbons are made from a combination of cotton and rayon. The rayon, being a semi-synthetic, used to be made of cotton (until, I believe, sometime in the 1960s). Nowadays it's produced synthetically right from the start.
That has changed the properties of the material: it conforms less to the crown shape and the folding of the bow, and it has a different sheen. Vintage ribbon has a beautiful, very subtle sheen to it which lacks in modern ribbon.

Ribbon surface - the "ripples", if you will:
The ripples can be slightly coarser or finer. The latter usually is seen on high-quality vintage ribbon.
I'm not sure but it seems to me that Petersham ribbons tend to have slightly coarser ripples, which does harmonize with the border treatment of this type of ribbon. Of course, there is also variation of the ribbon surface in grosgrain ribbons.

Hmmm...interesting....

that would explain why an inexperienced or novice hat wearer might sense there was something a little different about a ribbon but, couldn't quite "put their finger" on what the difference is......except for the design of the edge of the ribbon.

Thanks for the basic and deeper explanation.

 

[Rabbit]

...but, couldn't quite "put their finger" on what the difference is...

If it helps any further, the difference between vintage and modern ribbon may be compared to the difference between high-quality and low-quality silk ties. They handle, look (different sheen and dyes, especially) and feel differently.

 

[bowlerman]

Rabbit, anyone,
Can you help with identifying this type of ribbon? I thought Petersham originally, but clearly, the edge is finished, not scalloped. It's the sort of alternating thread pattern that throws me off.

This is a Stevens hat I sold a month or two ago.

 

[DNO]

Rabbit, anyone,
Can you help with identifying this type of ribbon? I thought Petersham originally, but clearly, the edge is finished, not scalloped. It's the sort of alternating thread pattern that throws me off.

This is a Stevens hat I sold a month or two ago.

The ribbon is really reminiscent of the ribbon used on Canadian/British officer's caps. Here it is on a '50's vintage RCAF cap:

and on a Second World War RCN hat:

Only place I've ever seen a ribbon with that kind of pattern.

 

[Rabbit]

Rabbit, anyone,
Can you help with identifying this type of ribbon? I thought Petersham originally, but clearly, the edge is finished, not scalloped. It's the sort of alternating thread pattern that throws me off.

This is a Stevens hat I sold a month or two ago.

Short answer: dunno.
Long answer: I have seen this particular type of ribbon (patterned surface, finished border) exactly once - on this Knox Foxhound I got from fellow lounger Mattface.
As you can see, it's a casual hat with a country motive embroidered liner.

Personally, I believe the example posted by DNO to be a different type of hatband. The weave pattern you're referring to, Bowlerman, reflects the light in alternating ways, doesn't it? The hatband on DNO's example looks more like a pure cotton weave with an even light reflection and a different construction.

The only difference between your example and mine seems to be the height of the vertical pattern, and an additional thin pattern in between wider ones on yours.

They're high-res pics, by the way, you may want to blow them up.

 

[DNO]

Personally, I believe the example posted by DNO to be a different type of hatband. The weave pattern you're referring to, Bowlerman, reflects the light in alternating ways, doesn't it? The hatband on DNO's example looks more like a pure cotton weave with an even light reflection and a different construction.

The only difference between your example and mine seems to be the height of the vertical pattern, and an additional thin pattern in between wider ones on yours.

Your ribbon is closer to Bowlerman's, I think. Definitely a different pattern from my military hats.

 

[Rabbit]

Your ribbon is closer to Bowlerman's, I think. Definitely a different pattern my military hats.

While we're on the topic, the hatband on your military hats must have some name...it's such a distinct pattern. Actually it looks more like a knitting, doesn't it?