Has custom made lost status?

[Fletch]

It used to be that the true sophisticate (and even a lot who weren't) had clothing made bespoke, or at least custom tailored.

With the advance of consumerism and celebrity culture, you can easily spend more on an off-the-rack designer item than it would cost to have it made just for you. (How well made, now, that's another question?)

Have stylish people just forgotten about custom clothing? Has "label" truly won out over "unique"? Or has truly good custom work just become too rare and too dear?

 

[Fletch]

And should I maybe go ask this at the London Lounge?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Probably.


Generally speaking, London Loungers are further along on the learning curve ... though we're far more down-to-earth, thank goodness.


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[Will]

It used to be that the true sophisticate (and even a lot who weren't) had clothing made bespoke, or at least custom tailored.

With the advance of consumerism and celebrity culture, you can easily spend more on an off-the-rack designer item than it would cost to have it made just for you. (How well made, now, that's another question?)

Have stylish people just forgotten about custom clothing? Has "label" truly won out over "unique"? Or has truly good custom work just become too rare and too dear?

I doubt if many men who have worn bespoke would argue for expensive off the rack.

The expensive off the rack purveyors have done a great job of marketing. In many American cities, you can't find bespoke unless someone has given you one of the secret decoder rings. So a lot of men aren't aware of the choice and think that stepping up to made to measure is all there is.

 

[John in Covina]

I really think, in the US, most men that are buying a suit don't realize it is still posible to get a custom suit. For those that know, many think the price will be astrnomically high and therefore they can't consider it a viable choice.

 

[Lincsong]

Well, there's a place in Los Altos where the lowest custom made suit is $2500 so I don't think it's lost it's status at all.

 

[Orgetorix]

Well, there's a place in Los Altos where the lowest custom made suit is $2500 so I don't think it's lost it's status at all.

The difference is that when you buy a $2500 bespoke suit, you're paying for the tailor's skill and time, which translates into a well-made and -fitted garment. When you buy a $2500 off-the-rack designer suit, you're paying for a name, a label, an image, and a marketing scheme, all of which are incidental to a mediocre suit.

 

[Fletch]

I knew I could depend on the Lounge

...to warm up to this topic eventually.

I had a thought: perhaps the styling and workmanship of a $1200 RL Purple Label suit is not so readily available these days in a $1200 custom suit.

My impression is that men who buy custom made today are typically older, more conservative, and more interested in fit than style. And custom makers may have become somewhat unresponsive to individual style as they cater to that market.

This is the impression I get from looking in shop windows in NYC, at any rate.

 

[manton]

I think custom clothing has definitely lost status to high-end RTW and even MTM. Not to say that it now has no status, but it's far more a niche product than it used to be.

Talk to some of the old timers in NY (or a guy like Carl Goldberg, who is not old, but is a repository of clothing lore) and you realize that the city used to be absolutely teeming with bespoke tailors. Similarly, pretty much every major city in the US used to have several. New York still has the most, but the numbers are way, way down. Chicago has, what, two? Philly one, two if you count the burbs. SF, none. L.A., maybe three.

The same is true for shirtmakers. And the same is true in London. The overall trade there is healthier, but the numbers are still way down from their peak.

Why? Probably a combination of many factors. Back in the day, a custom suit was more expensive than a RTW suit, but the gap was smaller. (This is to leave aside for the moment the price of extremely high-end RTW). Labor costs have driven that gap up considerably. I'm not sure what cultural reasons are responsible for this, but men also became more impatient. They used to be, by and large, quite content to wait for things to be made. Now very few of them are so patient.

The gigantic marketing machines of the top brands also surely have taken their toll. Once a man is "certain" that Kiton is the best, the name of some unknown tailor in a side street walkup sounds declasse by comparison. Some of the Savile Row names have a bit of brand cache, but even this pales in comparision to Kiton & Brioni. None of the US tailors have anywhere near even SR cache. Fioravanti is probably the only one who has any brand cache at all. This matters. I know guys who spend oodles of money on everything, the best across the board, etc., and they could not be less interested in custom clothes.

Finally, there is something daunting about custom clothing. At least with high end RTW, you can see the thing in some form before you buy. With custom, the best you can do is see things the maker has made for someone else. You really have no idea how your suit will look. You could end up paying a lot for something that, in the end, you don't like.

 

[vonwotan]

My personal and biased opinion...

All I can say is thank goodness for the bespoke (and MTM) tailors out there in the world. It has always been difficult for me to find clothing, not only due to my size, but due to my build. Different tailors adhere to different schools of thought on how to make a suit - Savile Row style, Neapolitan, Rome/Italian, etc. - most tailors I have visited are very interested in style but less concerned with fashion. You can, of course, find a few in Hong Kong and elsewhere who are happy to knock off your favorite designers clothing for less.

A bench tailored bespoke suit takes quite a lot of labor and collaboration between the tailor and his client. Many measurements, an expert eye to assess your idiosyncrasies - the sloped shoulders, each a bit different than the other; imperfect posture; your proportions, etc. And several fittings for each suit to make sure the fit, drape, etc. are all right. Generally my tailors have asked that I wear my suit for a bit and then return for any adjustments or touch ups. All of this is carefully recorded in a dossier so that future work is well informed and the end result like a second skin - so comfortable that you will never find yourself readjusting, tugging here and there.

A wholly different experience. One caveat is that a client must know what he or she wants to make it really work. Designers like Ralph Lauren borrow from some of the classis but then put something of their own sense of style into the clothes they produce. But with RLPL prices, even at trunk shows, where they will make their clothes to measure – they are really adjusting a 35 Short for me and while it fits at the shoulders, it does not fit in the body, etc.

I envy those who can shop off the rack because it can be less expensive, especially if you are patient and willing to wait for sales, trunk shows or, for the on-line and outlet sellers to receive their stock.

 

[manton]

I had a thought: perhaps the styling and workmanship of a $1200 RL Purple Label suit is not so readily available these days in a $1200 custom suit.

RLPL costs way more than $1,200 at retail. But supposing you find one on ebay or Sierra Trading Post or whatever, they can be a good deal.

It's hard to find a $1,200 custom suit in the US. But take, for instance, Chan. They charge around $1,000 -- less for cheaper cloth, more for more expensive. A Chan suit is not better made than RLPL (which is St. Andrews last I checked) but definitely better made than (say) Corneliani and its other peers at that price point.

The problem with Chan is, you never know what you're going to get. I've seen great things, I've seen ho hum things, and I've seen disasters. The risk only compounds when you use an overseas tailor. With any tailor, but especially with someone overseas, you have to order a few things to work through all the issues/problems. Most men find that shocking. I'm paying all this $$$, and the first one won't be perfect? To hell with that!

My impression is that men who buy custom made today are typically older, more conservative, and more interested in fit than style.

Yes and no. Older: some are, some aren't. It helps to be older, because you make more money. But some younger guys take the plunge anyway.

More conservative? Hard to say. Some custom customers are, some aren't. It's realtively easy to find conservative clothes, even today. So that's not what would drive a guy to custom. He might be conservative, but he would be going custom for some other reason.

Fit? Probably the number one reason. Unless you are very lucky and have the right body shape in every respect, a RTW suit won't fit nearly as well as a good custom suit.

Another reason is to get good cloth. The best cloth made today is never, but never found RTW.

Another reason is simply to always get what you want. Want a gray chalk stripe but there isn't a good one this season RTW? Or there is, but it's SB and you want DB? Well, get it custom made.

And custom makers may have become somewhat unresponsive to individual style as they cater to that market

Again, some are, some aren't. The best ones are flexible and able to do different things. This another good reason to go custom. Maybe you can find a suit that fits correctly, but stylewise it just doesn't do it for you: gorge too low, lapel too narrow, collar shape bland, etc. You should be able to get these things the way you want them from a tailor.

This is the impression I get from looking in shop windows in NYC, at any rate.

Maybe I misinterpret this, but I don't see how you could, as none of the tailors in NY (save one) has a street level storefront.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Many retailers are getting into the act. Brooks Brothers calls in "Master Tailors" for custom designed suits. These are special events and their prices aren't listed. I do not know how good or bad they are, because I haven't seen the results, so I will reserve judgement.

Burberry is doing the same. They have custom made suit events and they have "The Art of The Trench" campaign which allows you to specify the details on a trench coat for a very affordable (relatively) price. I believe a gabardine trench coat was around $800.

 

[manton]

Many retailers are getting into the act. Brooks Brothers calls in "Master Tailors" for custom designed suits. These are special events and their prices aren't listed. I do not know how good or bad they are, because I haven't seen the results, so I will reserve judgement.

I assume this refers to the Golden Fleece MTM events. The suits are generally less than $2,000. They are made by Martin Greenfield in his Brooklyn factory. Martin himself comes and takes measurements on certain days. If you can get there on one of those days, your chances of getting a good suit rise considerably. In any even, it's still a MTM suit made from an adjusted block pattern.

Greenfield's factory is one of the best in the country, perhaps the very best, but the work is not quite up to the standards of the very best bespoke tailors.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

My impression is that men who buy custom made today are typically older, more conservative, and more interested in fit than style...

I reckon that there were (and are?) three main types of American men who buy custom made.


The first type is older, monied, and misshapen. That is, he has a hunched back and/or a raging pot belly and/or bandy legs. Bespoke suits not only look but also feel better to him.


The second type has a Beau Brummel-esque sensibility and enough cash to indulge it. He prefers bespoke, yes, but not necessarily because of 'body issues.' He demands that his suits be personalized (but not to the point of accentuating his defects, of course).


The third type buys bespoke for status' sake. THat is, he does so because his (inherited or chosen) socio-economic class goes that route.


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[Marc Chevalier]

Talk to some of the old timers in NY ... and you realize that the city used to be absolutely teeming with bespoke tailors. Similarly, pretty much every major city in the US used to have several.

True! And more often than not, they were Italian immigrants. The Italian-Americans established themselves here as custom tailors of choice (and held those laurels for many decades), while Jewish immigrants -- who started out as tailors at home -- branched into manufacturing, wholesale and retail (with spectacular success).

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[Fletch]

I'll by that. And one group had better success, no doubt because they stopped being craftspeople and became businesspeople. The other group faded.

manton, maybe I'm going on my memory here, but I used to see a small number (not huge but greater than one) of custom shops with their wares in the windows. Sanitate on W. 55th is one, Ascot Chang was another. There are a few more

 

[vonwotan]

Dont forget the odd balls like myself - still relatively young, but due to size and proportions not within the 'norm' in need of a good tailor or doomed to wear "good enough" from the MTM events and trunk shows at RL and others. This requires some budgeting and the usual dance for approval from the women in my life. I do miss the days pre Marks and Spencer when BB had a good custom shop. I still have two of those suits and, for the price, they are very well made.

I reckon that there were (and are?) three main types of American men who buy custom made.


The first type is older, monied, and misshapen. That is, he has a hunched back and/or a raging pot belly and/or bandy legs. Bespoke suits not only look but also feel better to him.


The second type has a Beau Brummel-esque sensibility and enough cash to indulge it. He prefers bespoke, yes, but not necessarily because of 'body issues.' He demands that his suits be personalized (but not to the point of accentuating his defects, of course).


The third type buys bespoke for status' sake. THat is, he does so because his (inherited or chosen) socio-economic class goes that route.


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[StanleyVanBuren]

Well, there's a place in Los Altos where the lowest custom made suit is $2500 so I don't think it's lost it's status at all.

What? Where? I'm from Los Altos.

What's the name of the place and is it downtown somewhere?

 

[manton]

For me, fit is criteria #1. No RTW or even MTM suit will ever fit as well as bespoke on me. I'll just give one example:

Look at the way that coat traces the curve of my back. It gets around the shoulder blades, then comes in (rather than hang straight from the widest part of the blades), then curves around my hips and comes back in ("cups") at the bottom edge. A have "salient blades" or a "round back" (same thing). No RTW coat will ever accound for that. Also, that is a side vented coat, but you can hardly tell, the vents close so tightly. Note also the way the sleeve traces the hang of my arm precisely. I have rearward hanging arms; the sleeves on a RTW coat would bunch badly in back.

Second is styling. I like a higher gorge, wider lapel, higher button point, higher armhole, etc. I also don't like padding. I can't find what I want RTW.

Third is cloth. I like old fashioned cloth. The best stuff is not used RTW, by anyone, ever.

Fourth is the freedom. SB, DB, two buton, three button, two piece, three piece, SB vest, DB vest, etc. All the options are on the table.

Fifth is color and pattern. Sometimes I get solid gray (at least the gorge is where I want it, etc.). But sometimes I get gray hairline with a broken tan double windowpane. With bespoke, it's up to me -- so long as I can find the cloth.

 

[manton]

manton, maybe I'm going on my memory here, but I used to see a small number (not huge but greater than one) of custom shops with their wares in the windows. Sanitate on W. 55th is one, Ascot Chang was another. There are a few more

Sanitate is the only one. Ascot Chang is more of a shirtmaker than a tailor, and the stuff is in any case all made in Hong Kong.