Has anyone seen a Golden Era leather jacket made from Horween CXL FQHH or Steer

[thor]

There are different species of goats that certain tanneries (and jacket makers) utilize. There are domestic goats (thinner hide with even grain), and Wild Goat or Mountain Goat (thicker hides with heavier, pronounced grain). The thicker stuff would probably provide the best abrasion resistance (and protection) I would think.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Really, I didn't think goat ran quite that heavy. You must have got a particularly heavy one. I've got an AL black goat roadster which has also not fully broken in, I don't wear leather jackets that much where I live now. It's more like 2.5 oz I should think, about the same as an EL M422 I used to have.

The AL goat is nice though.

It could be 2.5 oz, in truth I don't have the equipment that would allow me to be sure. But it is heavier than my other 2.5oz jackets and is taking longer to break in. Whatever it is, it's a hell of a tough hide and grainy as hell so it might be one of Thor's mountain goats.

 

[Plumbline]

There are typically 3 tests used for abrasion resistance of materials ( including leather ) under the new(ish) EU std. for motorcycle clothing - ( rotating platform (basically sanding and usually a Taber type test), drag and tear) . There is also a more generic ASTM test - D7255 testing ( Taber Method - see sanding above) which if memory serves is aplicable mainly to upholstery but can be applied to any product.

This gives some level of comparison (Pounds of force until fabric tears and number of abrasion cycles on pavement until fabric fails )

CottonJeans - 4.5 pounds to tear 50 cycles to failure
70 Denier Standard Nylon - 4.5 pounds to tear 165 cycles to failure
500 Denier Polyester - 8 pounds to tear 180 cycles to failure
200 Denier Standard Nylon - 7.5 pounds to tear 275 cycles to failure
500 Denier Cordura - 22 pounds to tear 710 cycles to failure
620 Denier Cordura - 35 pounds to tear 1200 cycles to failure
NEW Competition Grade Leather (3oz equiv.) - 80-110 pounds to tear 1200-1700 cycles to failure
1000 Denier Cordura - 110 pounds to tear 1780 cycles to failure
Air Mesh Kevlar - 1260 pounds to tear 970 cycles to failure
Stretch Kevlar Blend (Keprotec) - 420lbs pounds to tear 1800 cycles to failure

Drag Test

For the Drag Test, samples are stitched into the bottom of a bag that held a 75-pounds of sand, then dragged behind a vehicle at 20mph, the distance is the distance until the material holed.

New, 100% Cotton Denim Jeans (11oz)----------------------- 3' 10"
Balistic Nylon ----------------------------------- 3' 10"
Leather Bovine (2.25 oz) --- 4' 3"
Leather Goat (1.75 oz) ------------- 4' 4"
100% Cotton Denim Jeans (13oz) ( 2 yrs old) ------------ 4' 5"
Cordura Nylon (440) ----------------------------- 18' 3"
Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber ------------------ 22' 1"
Leather, Competition (3 oz) -------- 86' 0"
Ballistic Kevlar ---------- 126' 8"


So as you can see in "real" world testing thick "competition grade" leather does pretty well ... although not all leathers are created equal and "thickness isn't the only variable not are "lab testing" totally applicable in the "real" world. Interesting 1.75oz Goat does as well as 2.25oz cowhide and BOTH of these ARE ON A PAR with 134oz 2 year old denim .

From a leather perspective the following is a league table re. abrasion resistance ( again with the caveat that not all leathers are created equal re. tanning and preparation ) .. also NOTE Competition Grade Bovine ( which is very specifically tanned to be high abrasion and tear resistant ) leathers are shown seperate to normal Bovine. In addition many of the "exotic" hides shown are "std" 1- 1.6 oz commercial grade hides and thickness ( as they say)does have a significant effect.

Stingray or shagreen leather
Kangaroo leather
Competition Grade (3oz) Bovine Leather
Goat skin leather
Deerskin Leather
Bovine or Horsehide leather (3oz)
Crocodile and Alligator Leather
Ostrich leather
Calfskin
Kidskin Leather
Sheep skin leather
Pig or hog skin leather
SnakeskinLeather
Eel skin Leather

The data comes from a variety of sources including glove manufacturers, M/C clothing testing houses, University of Cambridge materials testing lab, DoE standards office, ASTM and also the background testing for EN 1621 (1 &2), EN 13594, EN 13595 (1,2 & 3), EN 13634 and ISO 13688. It is A SUMMARY of a large body of data and I have tried to represent it in the best fashion I can ... much of it in parts has been published before in various publications and also reproduced by myself and others in various M/C forums e.g. Bikers Oracle, Visordown etc.

NOTE / DISCLAIMER : This is for info and discussion ONLY and in no way defines a recommendation ( implied or otherwise) for any material to be used in Motorcycling nor should you purchase any protective clothing on the basis of this information.

 

[Capesofwrath]

Some of those numbers seem a bit strange. Light goat, cow and denim holing after just about four and a half feet at 20 mph with only 75 pounds pressing down on them? I weigh much more than that and I wouldn't expect a pair of jeans to hole if I slid on my arse for twenty feet.

 

[Plumbline]

Remember its' hitting the ground at 20mph ( so not even "that" fast ... ) not dragging from a standstill .... I watched some of the initial testing in Cambridge back in the mid-80's and it was surprising how quickly the sand poured out ( the distance was measured from the point where the test started till the first appearance of sand effectively). What was very surprising was how effective double layering was at increasing the abrasion time ... much better than 2 x a single layer.

 

[Smithy]

Some of those numbers seem a bit strange. Light goat, cow and denim holing after just about four and a half feet at 20 mph with only 75 pounds pressing down on them? I weigh much more than that and I wouldn't expect a pair of jeans to hole if I slid on my arse for twenty feet.

Capes, I think that maybe speed is the part of the equation that might be the decisive factor, 20mph (or over 30kmh) whilst also being exposed to the weight pressure.

EDIT: Plumbline beat me to it!

 

[Capesofwrath]

Yes well... I suppose it's the pressure area size that's important. If they used a bag of sand with the material sewn into the bottom the surface area would be quite small. But when you slide you slide in your back, feet first usually after you've stabilised. So the amount of surface area is much greater. 20 MPH is really not very fast and you wouldn't slide very far at all at that speed anyway.

 

[ButteMT61]

Thanks for the data plumbline. Interesting, but watch the Moto GP and World Superbike riders. As far as I've ever seen, I've not. It iced any goat. Kangaroo, steer, and deer yes.
Maybe Wade/Carrie can drop in here. All I know from real-world is that the heavy cow and deer gloves saved me bacon twice.
Anyhoo, ANY gear is better than none. Sadly I see tons of kids out here riding in nothing more thanks shorts and sneakers and tank tops with girls on the pillions wearing thongs. I cringe when I see that. They just don't know.

 

[Plumbline]

Anyhoo, ANY gear is better than none. Sadly I see tons of kids out here riding in nothing more thanks shorts and sneakers and tank tops with girls on the pillions wearing thongs. I cringe when I see that. They just don't know.

Absolutely Butte ... absolutely.

As an aside I was with Gresini Racing (MotoGP) from 2003 - 2007 and can concur we had kangaroo ( mainly) and deer ( one manufacturer) palmed gloves and used competition grade bovine in the suits with some thinner bovine as well. Never seen goat for the simple reason according to Scott, Alpinestars and Dianesse that they couldn't get skins of sufficient quality ( consistancy and size) and in sufficient colour grade. Alpinestars did try kangaroo but again the feedback wasn't good and the skin is difficult to prepare ( Tan, dye and finish ) to acceptable level. It should be noted that much of the competition grade bovine I saw ( albeit this is 5-10 year old data) came from S. America. Equally from many manufacturers the highest grade competition grade bovine is WHITE as only the very best hides can be finished in white.

Still no sign of a Horween CXL Vintage Jacket though

 

[Edward]

Thanks for the data plumbline. Interesting, but watch the Moto GP and World Superbike riders. As far as I've ever seen, I've not. It iced any goat. Kangaroo, steer, and deer yes.
Maybe Wade/Carrie can drop in here. All I know from real-world is that the heavy cow and deer gloves saved me bacon twice.
Anyhoo, ANY gear is better than none. Sadly I see tons of kids out here riding in nothing more thanks shorts and sneakers and tank tops with girls on the pillions wearing thongs. I cringe when I see that. They just don't know.

Yeah, it is worrying. Friend of my dad's is a biker chaplain; he did a funeral a few years ago for a girl who hit the ground face first inan open face lid. Nothing the undertaker could do for the family but screw the lid down tight...

 

[regius]

Great thread, had I seen this I wouldn't pose the same question in a different thread. Indeed, I have seen (not owned, but experienced, in stores, thanks to where I live) quite a few vintage stuff and they are not as heavy. What's common to them is they are 90% all of the same color!! Brown with a reddish tone. Horsehide, Steerhide, Hercules, Monarch, Windward whatever, the same. Guess everybody looked brown back then, BROWN WAS THE BLACK! Until Schott came along. Well in fact, Schott was before them when Irvin "invented" the motorcycle jacket. Schott has always used dense and thick steer/cowhide for the early 1928 and perfectos. Among the vintage jackets, Schott biker jackets retained integrity and density the best, and the heaviest. The other workwear/mall jackets all became puffed up, like the current Eastman HH after a year or two wearing, they soften, but also puff, the fibers got loosened, and air got in between. I haven't owned an Aero long enough to experience this puffing, however. Also, it was the horsehides that puffed, not the steers. My 1940s Monarch in steer is still stretchy, tough and dense, whereas the same-era Hercules in HH became light and puffy (change in density shouldn't change weight given there's no loss of solid material, so I guess there was a great deal loss of oil).

 

[Dinerman]

Indeed, I have seen (not owned, but experienced, in stores, thanks to where I live) quite a few vintage stuff and they are not as heavy. What's common to them is they are 90% all of the same color!! Brown with a reddish tone. Horsehide, Steerhide, Hercules, Monarch, Windward whatever, the same.

I've seen very few in exactly the same color. Tons of variation in the many different browns used. Black was also common before motorcycle jackets.

Well in fact, Schott was before them when Irvin "invented" the motorcycle jacket. Schott has always used dense and thick steer/cowhide for the early 1928 and perfectos. Among the vintage jackets, Schott biker jackets retained integrity and density the best, and the heaviest.

Schott inventing the motorcycle jacket is 100% advertising hype, no truth to it. Vintage Schotts were no heavier than many other manufacturers.

The other workwear/mall jackets all became puffed up, like the current Eastman HH after a year or two wearing, they soften, but also puff, the fibers got loosened, and air got in between. I haven't owned an Aero long enough to experience this puffing, however. Also, it was the horsehides that puffed, not the steers. My 1940s Monarch in steer is still stretchy, tough and dense, whereas the same-era Hercules in HH became light and puffy (change in density shouldn't change weight given there's no loss of solid material, so I guess there was a great deal loss of oil).

I can't say I've ever seen, experienced or heard of this phenomenon before. Care to elaborate?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I'd like to see a picture of "puffing", just to make sure I'm thinking about the right thing.

 

[regius]

The word puff was first used by John Chapman to describe Eastman horsehide, which I had an used one at the time and knew exactly what he meant. Then later on, I bought a new one, which was like card board, so I thought well this is quite a variation. However, after some wear, the sleeve areas started to puff just like the other one. Fibre getting moved is for sure, but the air getting in part was my guess. I think if you measure a new, densely packed HH versus its softened state later on, there could be a slight thickness difference. After all, the hide in the tannery was rolled out of a roller, and any organic, protein-based material will loose up (so does wool) and air will get trapped in.

 

[HDRnR]

I've had several old HB's in HH that I'd say are very heavy, close to or equal to modern CXL, the one I just sold in the classifieds is equal to a modern Aero. I also have several vintage CHP jackets that are as heavy as a modern heavy weight Langlitz which I'd say is the heaviest modern leather I've come across. Those old CHP jackets are much heavier than any vintage Schott I've seen.

 

[regius]

The puff I observed in the old jackets is such that some panels are still smooth and cardboard like, you pinch it, it's stiff and dense, but other panels are more sponge-like, if you know what I mean, this is the best I can describe it.

 

[regius]

I've had several old HB's in HH that I'd say are very heavy, close to or equal to modern CXL, the one I just sold in the classifieds is equal to a modern Aero. I also have several vintage CHP jackets that are as heavy as a modern heavy weight Langlitz which I'd say is the heaviest modern leather I've come across. Those old CHP jackets are much heavier than any vintage Schott I've seen.

I agree, and I take back about the part that Schott was the heaviest (did I even say that?), when motorcycle jackets are fractioned in, they can be quite heavy.

 

[HDRnR]

I agree, and I take back about the part that Schott was the heaviest (did I even say that?), when motorcycle jackets are fractioned in, they can be quite heavy.

Yes, the CHP jackets seem consistently heavyweight from what I've seen, I have some that are over fifty years old and are still not broken in. Most are no names but I have a Californian that is right up there with modern CXL in weight.

 

[HDRnR]

So back to OP, did you examine any CHP jackets ? Because thats where I'd start to look. The quality there would be higher than a standard consumer jacket in terms of construction and hide.

 

[tmitchell59]

What is a golden era jacket in Horween CXL going to look like? The discussion is about weight, but isn't the CXL just a process and not just about weight? I've not owned a vintage leather jacket with the weight of the new breed. I have not owned motorcycle jackets but sports/utility jackets. Is there something that is going to distinguish a CXL jacket? I like the old and the new.