Hammett

[Jaxenro]

Picked up a two volume set from Library of America of all of Hammett's short stories and novels. Also a two volume set of Chandler but I am reading Hammett first. I am on the Continental Op series now the language and atmosphere of prohibition San Francisco is great

 

[Just Jim]

The Continental Op stories are a delight, until you almost feel you know the man. As you say, Hammett creates the atmosphere of the times beautifully! Then suddenly the cynicism of the man, and the times, becomes almost another character.

There's a conversation the Op has with Gabrielle that mirrors one I had with a co-worker. It caused me to re-assess how the things I do are interpreted by some people, and how I feel about that. The noir pulps can't be all bad if they cause that kind of evaluation of one's world-view.

 

[Jaxenro]

I had just finished the first four Philo Vance books which is a different style altogether. Hammett is more cynical perhaps due to having been a detective himself before he took up writing

 

[Benzadmiral]

I had just finished the first four Philo Vance books which is a different style altogether. Hammett is more cynical perhaps due to having been a detective himself before he took up writing

I read the first 4 Vance novels when I was about 14, and was much more accepting then of ornate, old-fashioned writing styles. But I quickly got tired of Vance himself, his learned speeches and his "don't y'know" verbal tics.

Now let's give credit where credit should be given: Willard H. Wright, "S.S. Van Dine," essentially created the form of the modern "amateur detective" whodunit (though Agatha Christie had published her first few books before Van Dine appeared). Starting in 1929, the Ellery Queen cousins aped the Vance model for some years, though their plots and clues were much more brilliant and imaginative. But by about 1935 they saw that Van Dine's style was falling out of favor with editors and the reading public. So they wisely evolved their detective, Ellery Queen, into a more likeable fellow.

Hammett is always worth reading. The Continental Op stories, I've always thought, would have made a good vehicle in the late Sixties for Edward Asner -- the Op is described as a short fat fellow.

 

[Jaxenro]

I have never met a writer so in love with his character as Van Dine is with Vance. They made better movies as he wasn’t so annoying

 

[Jaxenro]

I was thinking of E G Robinson as the Op

 

[Benzadmiral]

I have never met a writer so in love with his character as Van Dine is with Vance. They made better movies as he wasn’t so annoying

I believe it was Ogden Nash who wrote, "Philo Vance/Needs a kick in the pance."

Somewhere, many years ago, I read a short parody of the Vance series, contemporary with it. As I recall the author captured the tone quite well, while still being funny: For instance, the Vance character is described as having an "aquamarine" nose (as opposed to the "aquiline" nose Van Dine always commented on).

ETA: According to my online search, it was written by humorist Corey Ford under a pseudonym. But they say it was a novel, and I know the bit I read was a complete short parody in a collection of essays about, and parodies of, detective fiction. (Some accounts say the Ford book was a collection of parodies in the style of various authors of the time, not a novel -- and that would fit my recollection.)

 

[LizzieMaine]

Vance basically *was* S. S. Van Dine, who was in turn a character created and self-portrayed by Willard Huntington Wright, who was every bit as full of himself in real life as any character he created. He was a big deal in the world of avant-garde art criticism who was basically slumming as a detective story writer to make some fast cash, and seems to have been quite annoyed that his character took off. He made up the "Van Dine" identity to throw off any of his art-world colleagues who might have been inclined to look down on him, but by all indications he was instantly recognized just from the ineffable nature of his prose.

All that said, he did have to have some semblance of a sense of humor about himself -- otherwise there can be no explanation for "The Gracie Allen Murder Case."

I have to admit to a real fondness for the Vance-style Ellery Queen with his pince nez and his walking stick and his gratuitous quotes from Milton. There is no better portrait in literature of a callow boy trying really hard to sound like a jaded man of the world. Unless you count Holden Caulfield.

 

[Jaxenro]

Probably the most unusual parody is Albert Campion who was written by Margery Allingham as a parody of the Lord Peter Wimsey series, which I am also reading, and then went on for another fifteen or twenty stories

 

[Just Jim]

I was thinking of E G Robinson as the Op

I always pictured him played by Earnest Borgnine.

For those who's interest may have been piqued "just a bit", you can find the Continental Op and Philo Vance stories here: http://fadedpage.com/index.php Search by author name.

 

[Benzadmiral]

. . .
I have to admit to a real fondness for the Vance-style Ellery Queen with his pince nez and his walking stick and his gratuitous quotes from Milton. There is no better portrait in literature of a callow boy trying really hard to sound like a jaded man of the world. Unless you count Holden Caulfield.

Well, I love the brilliant plots and clues and multiple interpretations . . . but the solid relationship between Ellery and his father comes off the page well even in the early PV-like novels. You're right, though: In Greek Coffin Mystery Ellery gets outmaneuvered not once but 3 times by a criminal almost as smart as himself, and has to grow up but fast to arrive at the true, 4th solution.

 

[LizzieMaine]

That's probably best of the EQ "Nationality Object Mysteries," and really the first time you start to get a sense of Ellery as a real person instead of as a caricature. One thing I really miss about the later novels is that you don't see the Inspector as much as in earlier years, and you're right, that byplay between the two of them really adds a lot.

 

[Benzadmiral]

The Continental Op stories are a delight, until you almost feel you know the man. As you say, Hammett creates the atmosphere of the times beautifully! Then suddenly the cynicism of the man, and the times, becomes almost another character.

There's a conversation the Op has with Gabrielle that mirrors one I had with a co-worker. It caused me to re-assess how the things I do are interpreted by some people, and how I feel about that. The noir pulps can't be all bad if they cause that kind of evaluation of one's world-view.

I've always loved this snippet of dialog -- a quintessential example of the hardboiled style, says I; and the italics are mine:


"You're still all twisted up," I said brusquely, standing now and adjusting my borrowed crutch. "You think I'm a man and you're a woman. That's wrong. I'm a manhunter and you're something that has been running in front of me. There's nothing human about it. You might just as well expect a hound to play tiddly-winks with the fox he's caught."

 

[MikeKardec]

I love the idea of Robinson or Borgine as the OP. As a minor character I liked Peter Boyle playing the part in Hammett. Though The OP is seen as a denizen of the era in which Hammett published, he may be more accurate to the times when Hammett was an operative himself.

If you are going to read Hammett and Chandler you have to read Ross MacDonald. If Hammett wrote minimalist Noir and then Chandler baroque Noir, MacDonald was an adult balancing of the two; the Synthesis to Hammett's Thesis and Chandler's Anthesis. It's a very interesting literary history and one that can be accurately portrayed in the work of the three writers (though there were many, many more); in abbreviated form they cover the entire trajectory.

 

[Benzadmiral]

I love the idea of Robinson or Borgine as the OP. As a minor character I liked Peter Boyle playing the part in Hammett. Though The OP is seen as a denizen of the era in which Hammett published, he may be more accurate to the times when Hammett was an operative himself.

If you are going to read Hammett and Chandler you have to read Ross MacDonald. If Hammett wrote minimalist Noir and then Chandler baroque Noir, MacDonald was an adult balancing of the two; the Synthesis to Hammett's Thesis and Chandler's Anthesis. It's a very interesting literary history and one that can be accurately portrayed in the work of the three writers (though there were many, many more); in abbreviated form they cover the entire trajectory.

I did not know that. Was that the film with Frederic Forrest as the younger Hammett, first writing and selling stories based on his experiences? Boyle would have made a good Op in an adaptation of the short stories, or Red Harvest.

I haven't read much Ross MacDonald, but I have a copy of one novel at home. Perhaps I'll give it a shot this weekend.

 

[Jaxenro]

I do like Hammett but for detective fiction from the era I actually prefer the gentleman detective like Reginald Fortune

 

[MikeKardec]

I did not know that. Was that the film with Frederic Forrest as the younger Hammett, first writing and selling stories based on his experiences? Boyle would have made a good Op in an adaptation of the short stories, or Red Harvest.

That's the one. It's a fun, not too serious movie. Hammett, while helping out his aging mentor with a case, is led to encounter many of the characters who will populate his later work. That work is a bit more based on the movies made from his work, in particular The Maltese Falcon, but that's okay ... it is a movie having fun commenting on classic movies and made in the style of classic movies, ie. mostly on sound stages. There's actually some beautiful depictions of a writer actually WRITING, something filmmakers rarely attempt.

Hammett has a symbiotic relationship with One From The Heart, they were both being shot at the same time on the same (Zoetrope) lot. They share a couple of bits of footage and style of production ... not the look so much as a manner of production and planning that Coppola was experimenting with at that time. Maybe this is only apparent to me, as a film student I got the chance to visit their facilities a couple of time during the production of both films.

 

[Benzadmiral]

That's the one. It's a fun, not too serious movie. Hammett, while helping out his aging mentor with a case, is led to encounter many of the characters who will populate his later work. That work is a bit more based on the movies made from his work, in particular The Maltese Falcon, but that's okay ... it is a movie having fun commenting on classic movies and made in the style of classic movies, ie. mostly on sound stages. There's actually some beautiful depictions of a writer actually WRITING, something filmmakers rarely attempt.

Hammett has a symbiotic relationship with One From The Heart, they were both being shot at the same time on the same (Zoetrope) lot. They share a couple of bits of footage and style of production ... not the look so much as a manner of production and planning that Coppola was experimenting with at that time. Maybe this is only apparent to me, as a film student I got the chance to visit their facilities a couple of time during the production of both films.

I need to see Hammett all the way through, now that I've read Falcon and a lot of his other material.

Okay, trivia time: What other major Hollywood film depicts Dashiell Hammett? And who played him?

 

[MikeKardec]

Julia and it was Jason Robards. Is that the one you were thinking of?

 

[Kirk H.]

There was also Dash and Lilly with Sam Shepard playing Hammett