H’oly Grail Westerns and Fedoras

[kenbid]

I am really asking for answers to questions. My hats are 75% western but I do enjoy fedoras too. I am ametican living abroad.

It is my understanding that the hats from the 1930’s 1940’s and perhaps the 1950’s on the higher end hats can be superb. Some say surpassing even the most costly Stetson, resistol, etc, is this really true? Anyone know?

What I know now, and I am no expert at all Just a hobbyist with hats.
I have several modern 100x westerns Bailey, Stetson, resistol. Some seem softer than others but generally about the same thing. I prefer the 100x for longevity and ability to take the weather. Leaving the fur felt and shape/style out of it they are about the same quality. Which is quite acceptable. They look good too. This is important to me. I find Larry Mayan to come in a little bit higher quality than Stetson and resistol. Serratelli 100x bargain for the money, excellent hats, not as soft as the Stetsons and Bailey but darn good and runs about $600 brand new. Worth it.

So I tried going to 200x Stetson. Difference is extremely difficult to detect. I have not yet tried a 500x but am looking for one.

What got me thinking. I got a Churchill “50”not a 50x. This hat is different than the modern high end 100x hats. It is soft not just with fur but entire hat itself. Bashes super easily. Ok so I see a difference.not sure on age of churchill thinking 50’s or 60’s. Super condition. So now I want to get a one hundred quality hat in nice shape, you know no moth bites,no cat box odor,etc. I guess my Churchill 50 is a almost holy grail hat, LOL.

Question - Would I see a big difference going to a Churchill one hundred or Stetson one hundred, not talking x’s here, from my Churchill fifty?

Question - Since I see a lot of twenty and twenty five hats for sale I suspect they are not great hats? Am I right?

I have bought few custom 100x westerns. They seem To run about same quality as a Stetson 100x but I have a Bailey 100x that appears to be better than customs and Stetsons, go figure. I used to collect knives. Everyone said oh get custom knives. I did so few times. Got a real expensive piece of junk once, best I ever did was about equal to a high end Factory knife. I found High end factory knives to be the best overall price, quality, features. I suspect the vast majority of customs are not any better than the 100x hats, probably many worse. Am I wrong?

Question - is their a maker out there that can and will make a hat in all ways like a all high grade beaver Stetson from before ww2. I know they can use good beaver pelts but there is a lot more than that to consider. I think there are none but I am not sure. I think they mostly if not all buy the hat boxes from a company. This kills it for those that do so. My guess is they no longer have the ability or time to do so today. I expect if they could do so would be like $2500. Again this is a hobbyist not an expert talking.

I have never touched or laid eyes on a Stetson 1000x diamanté. These go for about $5000. Museum piece. Who wants to wear a five grand hat unless the money at the $5000 level is insignificant to you, then why not. I think this hat is same as a 100x with better fur felt, maybe 3% to 5% chinchilla felt added in and more jewelry so would not behave like my Churchill fifty. But again I do not know just guessing. Maybe the are like the old Stetson holy grails, I know not.

I am of opinion that there is no current manufacturer that makes a hat like the holy grail ones pre ww2 high end then. If anyone knows of such a manufacturer or custom maker please let me know who.

I know business in general. Makers are in business. If they price themselves to high they sell less even though quality is high. If they spend lot of time on hat then price goes up, then sales drop. Their best move is to go middle of the road. They cannot make money competing with modern Stetson 6x, so they go all beaver, many also push rabbit and blends. I would think they need to keep their quality a little higher than big factories and their quality a little higher. Then everyone says go get a custom hat. Well I have three I can think of and none of them are really stand outs. I have an o’farrell that is nice but has that modern rigid box and will not bash easily like my Churchill.

What makes me tick - I want to get the holy grail quality hats. Hats for me to put the search time in. Looking for a better answer. I do admit the hunt is fun. Fir anyone that helps me thanks So I plan on continuing to hunt for the holy grail hats and hope to find one.
Question -n

 

[Frunobulax]

First, you're mixing apples and oranges to some extent. Your modern 100x and 200x hats are quality level designations signifying, well, not much. We have no idea what those numbers mean, whether it be higher beaver content, more time on felt preparation, or whatever. An none will compare to the older hats from the 50s on back.

Your Churchill, on the other hand has a designation of "50." At the time it was sold, it was a $50 hat. Based on this price point, it's likely from the 60s (and very high quality). A couple o folks on here have found Churchill 100s, but they are rare as hens' teeth. Also, pretty sure Churchill is a higher end Resistol brand.

The same goes for the Twenty-fives. They were $25 dollar hats, and Stetson's twenty-fives are likely late 50s to mid-60s. A Stetson 100 was a $100 hat and came in a suitcase for storage. Very high end.

Your best bet for finding the type of felt quality and responsiveness of vintage hats is to go custom or go on the vintage hunt. However, I would suggest finding the right custom hatter for you, depending on your goals. All have different styles and some might not give you what you want, but still produce a high quality hat.

There is no substitute for the knowledge already on this forum. I would suggest you go the the "Important Hat Forum Threads" sticky and look over some of the discussions. There is a wealth of information there.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/links-to-important-hat-forum-threads.52584/

 

[Frunobulax]

Oh, and welcome to the Lounge!

 

[kenbid]

We’ll tank you for your comments and tips especially about my Churchill.
Can I ask you what you think about the quality if the Stetsons designated 20 or 25? Are they high end by todays standards.
Thanks for the help

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

“Serratelli 100x bargain for the money, excellent hats, not as soft as the Stetsons and Bailey but darn good and runs about $600 brand new. Worth it”.

Welcome to the lounge @kenbid.
Ditto what Fruno said.

If your quote above is true then you should have no trouble whatsoever finding the finest most sought after fur felt hats ever made.
Provided you stop buying modern hats based on the more Xs the better.

Ebay and the classifieds here should easily fill your bill.

Also, i have a hard time believing any of those hi X count moderns listed above come anywhere near the quality of the Churchill 50, which is a wonderful hat much less the Churchill 100 or Stetson 100s.
I paid $600-700 for my Churchill 50, 100 and Stetson 7X 100 combined.
It just takes patience and not buying modern X-hyped hats.
Again welcome
B

 

[Frunobulax]

We’ll tank you for your comments and tips especially about my Churchill.
Can I ask you what you think about the quality if the Stetsons designated 20 or 25? Are they high end by todays standards.
Thanks for the help

The 20s I'm familiar with are Stetson Dress hats and mostly date from the 50s. They were very nice hats and normally had features found in higher quality hats, like a Mode Edge. A 20 from the sixties I wouldn't touch, for various reasons.

The 25s I'm familiar with have been Open Roads from the late 50s or 60s, and have been a fairly heavy weight felt and very nice.

The trick is it's difficult to compare from differing eras. A 20 from the early fifties is going to be much better than a 20 from the 60s. We have examples of other, earlier models and brands from the 40s and 50s that have designations such as 40 ($40) that will make you forget all about that 1000X Diamante.

We even have a couple of older Knox 100s that will melt your face they're so nice.

And to make it even more confusing, there are some hats with no designations beyond the basics that are just as killer as the X hats or $XX hats.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Howdy! Sounds like you’re a true enthusiast and probably have a lot more experience with high end modern westerns than most of us here.

You used the word “box” a couple times in a context I’m not familiar with are you referring to the crown or something else?

The tastes of the western hat buying public has changed over the years. Most of the current market would not be at all happy with a high end western from the 1940s or earlier.

Almost all custom hat makers use beaver felt made by just two companies…and there is a third that is making some inroads. None of the modern felt can be made into hats that exactly mimic the pre-war high end hats. The same goes for those high “X” count top end modern factory hats; although, it’s also a product of what the customers want and very few want they type of felf found in the vintage hats.

There is only so much that can be done with a hat, any hat. It’s not as though the hatters can make a better hat but they don’t want to invest the time because they’ll price themselves out of this market. More time, effort, specialized tooling, etc. will not get you a better hat…unless you’re talking about a poor hatter to begin with. When one of my favorite hatters finishes a $500 custom beaver western it’s because it’s as good as it’s going to get. I’ve also test to see a $2,000 modern custom that matches one of those $500 hats when it comes to making a vintage type of hat. Don’t think that I’m saying that all quality custom hatters can make the same hats. I’ve found hatters who can approximate the vintage felt better than others, but they can’t match it due to the felt they are starting with. I’ve found a hatter that can get very close with fedoras, but the western hat bodies the felters supply just aren’t as conducive. You can get a more vintage-like hat from modern felt, but I’ve never seen anyone get close to duplicating it. There is just no way to message a pre-war hat out of modern felt.

I’ve not been overly impressed with most of the Twenty-Fives I’ve seen. This is more a product of the era they were made as they have mostly been late 1950s or 1960s. Twenty is a more common designation for dress hats (fedoras etc.), but there are some in the western line. The only Twenty Open Road I’ve owned was a great hat. The early 1950s and earlier fedora Twentys are very nice and to my way of thinking they are better than modern custom fedoras costing $1,500 or more (and who doesn’t love a Cavanagh edge?).

In my opinion, a 1940s or earlier Stetson 7X, or even the lower but rarer 5X, will be a better hat than a modern $5,000 Stetson. I’d also bet that the owners of the $5,000 hat would disagree.

I’ve had two Churchill Fifty hats and one Churchill 100 pass through my hands. I’ve never seen a modern hat that matches them. I recently had an early Stetson One Hundred come to me and that hat was phenomenal, much better than the late 1950s and early 1960s One Hundreds I’ve had before, and the later One Hundreds were still superior to the modern 500X etc. hats I’ve handled. Then again, this is because I like the attributes of vintage hats and the majority of modern western hat buyers do not.

I’ve owned a half dozen O’Farrell custom hats (all secondhand purchases that I’ve sold on) and even the earlier ones have not impressed me, but others love them. It depends what you like. My nicest modern custom western was made by Montecristi Hatswoks in New Mexico. It’s a fantastic hat, but it’s a totally different hat than a vintage hat. I don’t compare them as they were made in different eras to meet the preferences of different customers. I’ve had two customs by Butch Dorer and I’ve not been impressed, not to say they are “bad” hats, but just not what I ideally want.

Finding pre-war westerns in good shape is a real challenge and usually requires either deep pockets or a lot of time and often both. That said, I’ll take a pristine 1920s Stetson No. 1 Quality (a low end hat) over any of the modern 100-50000X hats. A nice, albeit small sized, Churchill 100 sold last week at auction for less than $200 with its fitted suitcase; it’s a 1950s or ‘60s hat, but as you know they are special hats.

I live in both worlds when it comes to westerns. I own several modern hats and I wear them regularly. I have a place for them. They are the tool I want for some circumstances. I’ve even commissioned customs knowing the felt was going to be very stiff and not at all what I like about vintage hats. I understand why the modern western hat buyer likes this type of felt. It has its place. However, for most of my purposes and with my lifestyle, the vintage hats are what I normally prefer.

Good luck hunting for your vintage hats….just stay away from those in 7 ⅝ or 7 ¾ hats.

 

[Who?]

On the other hand, some of us unenlightened folks just buy a hat, jam it on our head, and wear it until it disintegrates.

Then we buy another hat and start again.

To each his own. (do we dare say “his” these days?

 

[jlee562]

For further context regarding the 20/25/50 hats, that pricing existed when the lower price points might have been, say $11.95 for Royal Quality, or $15.95 for 3x, which are generally considered pretty good hats around here.



There's quite a difference between mercury processed felts and those that came after it was phased out. Bob at BSHW seemed pretty sure my 1920's No. 1 Quality was a mercury felt, and as Brent says above, I'd take that hat over any post-war/modern western.

 

[Who?]

What did the mercury processing do to the felt?

How are they different?

 

[Frunobulax]

What did the mercury processing do to the felt?

How are they different?

https://www.hatrealm.com/why-was-mercury-used-in-hat-production/

 

[jlee562]

What did the mercury processing do to the felt?

How are they different?

The long and short of it is that the felts are denser. The mercury solution altered the texture of the individual fibers such that they felted together tighter. I can't swear to it, but I thought I remember reading somewhere around here that mercury felts were advantageous for black hats specifically as well (for dye absorption).

 

[belfastboy]

On the other hand, some of us unenlightened folks just buy a hat, jam it on our head, and wear it until it disintegrates.

Then we buy another hat and start again.

To each his own. (do we dare say “his” these days?

I was given the option of including my preferred pronoun in my email signature. I thought..."What the hell, anything goes" So now my preferred pronoun is "Sir" or "Your Highness".

 

[Who?]

I was given the option of including my preferred pronoun in my email signature. I thought..."What the hell, anything goes" So now my preferred pronoun is "Sir" or "Your Highness".

You may find those forms of address already spoken for.

i‘m not sure a pronoun and a form of address are the same thing.

 

[jlee562]

We are getting way off topic, but as the resident San Franciscan, I assure you, nobody cares if you use he/him as your pronouns.

 

[belfastboy]

You may find those forms of address already spoken for.

i‘m not sure a pronoun and a form of address are the same thing.

Yes, good point but I decided rules don't seem to apply anymore so I picked what I wanted!

 

[drmaxtejeda]

Howdy! Sounds like you’re a true enthusiast and probably have a lot more experience with high end modern westerns than most of us here.

You used the word “box” a couple times in a context I’m not familiar with are you referring to the crown or something else?

The tastes of the western hat buying public has changed over the years. Most of the current market would not be at all happy with a high end western from the 1940s or earlier.

Almost all custom hat makers use beaver felt made by just two companies…and there is a third that is making some inroads. None of the modern felt can be made into hats that exactly mimic the pre-war high end hats. The same goes for those high “X” count top end modern factory hats; although, it’s also a product of what the customers want and very few want they type of felf found in the vintage hats.

There is only so much that can be done with a hat, any hat. It’s not as though the hatters can make a better hat but they don’t want to invest the time because they’ll price themselves out of this market. More time, effort, specialized tooling, etc. will not get you a better hat…unless you’re talking about a poor hatter to begin with. When one of my favorite hatters finishes a $500 custom beaver western it’s because it’s as good as it’s going to get. I’ve also test to see a $2,000 modern custom that matches one of those $500 hats when it comes to making a vintage type of hat. Don’t think that I’m saying that all quality custom hatters can make the same hats. I’ve found hatters who can approximate the vintage felt better than others, but they can’t match it due to the felt they are starting with. I’ve found a hatter that can get very close with fedoras, but the western hat bodies the felters supply just aren’t as conducive. You can get a more vintage-like hat from modern felt, but I’ve never seen anyone get close to duplicating it. There is just no way to message a pre-war hat out of modern felt.

I’ve not been overly impressed with most of the Twenty-Fives I’ve seen. This is more a product of the era they were made as they have mostly been late 1950s or 1960s. Twenty is a more common designation for dress hats (fedoras etc.), but there are some in the western line. The only Twenty Open Road I’ve owned was a great hat. The early 1950s and earlier fedora Twentys are very nice and to my way of thinking they are better than modern custom fedoras costing $1,500 or more (and who doesn’t love a Cavanagh edge?).

In my opinion, a 1940s or earlier Stetson 7X, or even the lower but rarer 5X, will be a better hat than a modern $5,000 Stetson. I’d also bet that the owners of the $5,000 hat would disagree.

I’ve had two Churchill Fifty hats and one Churchill 100 pass through my hands. I’ve never seen a modern hat that matches them. I recently had an early Stetson One Hundred come to me and that hat was phenomenal, much better than the late 1950s and early 1960s One Hundreds I’ve had before, and the later One Hundreds were still superior to the modern 500X etc. hats I’ve handled. Then again, this is because I like the attributes of vintage hats and the majority of modern western hat buyers do not.

I’ve owned a half dozen O’Farrell custom hats (all secondhand purchases that I’ve sold on) and even the earlier ones have not impressed me, but others love them. It depends what you like. My nicest modern custom western was made by Montecristi Hatswoks in New Mexico. It’s a fantastic hat, but it’s a totally different hat than a vintage hat. I don’t compare them as they were made in different eras to meet the preferences of different customers. I’ve had two customs by Butch Dorer and I’ve not been impressed, not to say they are “bad” hats, but just not what I ideally want.

Finding pre-war westerns in good shape is a real challenge and usually requires either deep pockets or a lot of time and often both. That said, I’ll take a pristine 1920s Stetson No. 1 Quality (a low end hat) over any of the modern 100-50000X hats. A nice, albeit small sized, Churchill 100 sold last week at auction for less than $200 with its fitted suitcase; it’s a 1950s or ‘60s hat, but as you know they are special hats.

I live in both worlds when it comes to westerns. I own several modern hats and I wear them regularly. I have a place for them. They are the tool I want for some circumstances. I’ve even commissioned customs knowing the felt was going to be very stiff and not at all what I like about vintage hats. I understand why the modern western hat buyer likes this type of felt. It has its place. However, for most of my purposes and with my lifestyle, the vintage hats are what I normally prefer.

Good luck hunting for your vintage hats….just stay away from those in 7 ⅝ or 7 ¾ hats.

I have a couple of Churchill Fifties, and they don't compare with the Churchill One Hundreds with Vicuña.

 

[belfastboy]

I have a couple of Churchill Fifties, and they don't compare with the Churchill One Hundreds with Vicuña.

I have longed for a Vicuna overcoat.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I have a couple of Churchill Fifties, and they don't compare with the Churchill One Hundreds with Vicuña.

I’ve only had one Churchill 100 in my hands. It was a nice hat, but it wasn’t as nice as I had expected after briefly owning a Churchill 50. I’m still waiting to find either in my size.

 

[chivaceae]

https://www.hatrealm.com/why-was-mercury-used-in-hat-production/

I read the article, and found it very interesting that camel urine and human urine were used to improve the felting process, attributed to the nitrogen content in urine (urea is the main compound in urine - also being the cheaper and most widely sold/used fertilizer in agriculture). The urine of a french hatter that was taking mercury (mercurous chloride, HgCl) as treatment for his syphilis, produced much better felts. As a result of this observation (breakthrough!), the hat industry started using mercuric nitrate Hg(NO₃)2.
I'll keep this bit of trivial information in my head - who knows, maybe one day I'll put it to use on beater hats with poor or cheap felts.
Raul