GUNS,GUNS and GUNS!!!!

[Dixon Cannon]

Hmmmmm.....

I've noticed in the past 30 years or so that pro gunownership is mainly a rural thing. Many of the residents of the big cities on both coasts aren't that crazy about guns, infact they are leary of any gun ownership. Citizens of Chicago and other urban areas are even voting to have themselves disarmed by passing "no gun ordanances".
I've also noted that the main ownership of guns in the big cities happens to be Gangsters , Thugs and Outlaws.
Just a cultural observation on my part. No judgements are intended.

I'd like to see the statistics on that one!

In actual fact, most responsible guns owners/users aren't out waving them around for all to see, or practicing on drive-by adventures. Like any tool, a responsible owner usually has them safely stored and ready for use, not showing them off as an ego boost. Even here in Arizona wear open carry is a way of life, few if any pull their guns out of the holster to show around; it's as matter of fact as wearing a cell-phone or a fanny-pac.

I dare say there are more irresponsible drinkers, drivers (and voters!) in the cities, towns and bergs of this country than there are irresponsible gun owners. I wouldn't put Gangsters, thugs and outlaws in the catagory of 'responsible'. (I doubt seriously they care what the law is!)

There may well be many more gun owners in NYC or Chicago, or any other city in the nation who have guns that no one knows about, set aside and ready, despite gun laws or public opinion.

-dixon cannon

 

[BeBopBaby]

Thank you all for some - by and large - very informative answeres. I too think we should talk much more about sex than guns.
Which made me think, that we do not do it here because of "youngguns" in the lounge. As a european that strikes me as downright strange.
Young people can handle guns freely but not read about sex:eusa_doh:

I agree, I think European culture is much more comfortable about sexuality. Just for example, a german friend once told me that he would much rather his child see a naked body on tv, then see a person being shot with a gun on tv. His reasoning was that the human body is a natural thing. But it seems to be reverse here in the U.S.

I think it also harkens back to the old statement that an 18 year old can enlist in the army and die for his country, but he can't have an alcoholic drink in the U.S. Why is that? I'll refrain from answering because I don't want to offend people with my political/moral beliefs, especially on a "no politics" message board. I don't think this is the place.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

Hitler had guns, did that make the Third Riech great? What matters are the minds/people behind it - brilliant strategists and leaders made this country great. Everyday people who gave up their lives or put their lives on hold to give all for their country gave us our freedom. Without that we're just a bunch of gun-toting animals.

Ahhhh.....! Interesting point indeed. "Hitler had guns...", so did his gangsters, thugs and outlaws! (The SA, SS, 'brownshirts' and Gestapo.) Who did NOT have guns were the citizens that might have defended themselves against Nazism in a revolt or insurrection! (The inhabitants of the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw DID have guns and they resisted and fought the Nazis almost to the last man standing.)

You are certainly right that guns are tools, and like any other tool they can be used for constructive or destructive purposes. Or, just held in waiting in case a purpose arrises. (Such as in Warsaw!).

I don't think anyone truly believe literally than guns made this nation. What matters are the "minds/people behind it" who understand that guns are the tools we use to preserve Liberty. And, as those "brilliant stategists and leaders" knew who founded this Republic, that gun ownership is the first defense against tyranny. They knew full well - they used them to end British tyranny so as to make this country - and make it great!

As for me, I'd rather me and my neighbors own and use guns than the any government agent that might just be 'following orders' in an attempt to take away my life, liberty and property. (I always have that picture of the jack-booted thug who wrested Elian Gonzales from the arms of his American protectors! That is the face of tyranny in action my friends!)

I own a car because I have the freedom to do so, and I use it responsibly. I own a power-saw because I have the freedom to do so, and I use it responsibly. I own a firearm because I have the freedom to do so. I use it responsibly AND, I would use it for it's Constitutional purpose - to defend my Life, Liberty, and Property. Thank God for this Constitutional Republic and the Liberty it provides!

-dixon cannon

 

[Big Man]

... I own a firearm because I have the freedom to do so. I use it responsibly AND, I would use it for it's Constitutional purpose - to defend my Life, Liberty, and Property. Thank God for this Constitutional Republic and the Liberty it provides!

-dixon cannon

Extremely well said, and I agree totally. The real issue with gun ownership is the RIGHT of the people to be able to defend themselves to the best of their ability - should they so choose.

 

[Spitfire]

"I don't think anyone truly believe literally than guns made this nation. What matters are the "minds/people behind it" who understand that guns are the tools we use to preserve Liberty. And, as those "brilliant stategists and leaders" knew who founded this Republic, that gun ownership is the first defense against tyranny. They knew full well - they used them to end British tyranny so as to make this country - and make it great!"

Let me refrase this (edited by Spitfire)
But Dixon - the british are gone. And with guns most of the native americans who were there first, were killed. And the rest of them are in reservations. What are americans so afraid of? Who is "the enemy" in Wisconsin, Arizona, Iowa....
Are you afraid the native americans will take over more than Hard Rock Cafe?
Now THAT is a severe threath.

I just dont get it. It's 2007.

The vikings - my people - were once rules over most of Europe. They fought, killed, plundred and burned their way through England, France, Russia and even found the way to Greenlan, Iceland and America (Vinland) - but it's very seldom to see somebody walking around with horned helmest and broadswords these days.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

"I don't think anyone truly believe literally than guns made this nation. What matters are the "minds/people behind it" who understand that guns are the tools we use to preserve Liberty. And, as those "brilliant stategists and leaders" knew who founded this Republic, that gun ownership is the first defense against tyranny. They knew full well - they used them to end British tyranny so as to make this country - and make it great!"

But Dixon - the british are gone. And with guns you also killed most of the native americans who were there before you. And the rest of them are in reservations. What are you afraid of?
That the native americans will take over more than Hard Rock Cafe?
Now THAT is a threath.

I just dont get it. It's 2007.

The vikings - my people - were once rules over most of Europe. They fought, killed, plundred and burned their way through England, France, Russia and even found the way to Greenlan, Iceland and America (Vinland) - but it's very seldom to see somebody walking around with horned helmest and broadswords these days.

No argument, just some clarification. I didn't kill any Native Americans (or anyone else, for that matter!) [I won't have my rights trampled or denigrated because of the actions by individuals long before I was conceived.] I wasn't born til after WWII. I rest my case there. What am I afraid of? Not a thing; fear is not my motivation at all. My responsible concern is, of course, run-away government and the people it uses to do their bidding. That is the 'eternal vigilence' that American's are charged with by our Founders.

As I stated earlier regarding the Warsaw ghetto, an armed populace is the best defense against tyranny (tyranny, of course, is run-away government). The people who died in Tienamen Square have some idea about that, I'm sure.
Our Founders certainly did. I do too.

-dixon cannon

 

[griffer]

There are those that think that Americans talk about guns and cars because we can't talk about sex.

Freudian subsitution. I wish we weren't so wierd about sex, but then again, it makes our fetishes so much more interesting.

Yes, yes, the shogunates took away swords, the Nazis took away guns. It is important to make sure physical, coercive power is not monopoly of the state.

But, it is a rather dated obsession. The point (pun intended) about the horned helmets is very humorous, but i also read another point in the subtext- Europeans have sort of 'been there. done that' when it comes to ruling the world- seems lie every ethno/nation state has been at the top of the heap at one time or another, even the Dutch.

We Americans are still trying to reign in the imperialism unleashed in WWI. We are still kinda running around banging our swords on our shields.

Oh well, yeah its a strange world where my wife endures my NRA membership and my military obsessions, but would never suffer a pornography subscription or erotica hanging from the walls.

But you should see her uniforms...

 

[griffer]

I admit, it was blantant but it got the point across. I'm afraid I've never been good at this sort of thing, I apologize for not having the snarky repartee of others on the board.

Whoa! Don't take offense!

It just caught me off guard, and I am used the the Nazis being the #1 symbol of why gun CONTROL is bad, NOT why GUNS are bad.

 

[Diamondback]

Dix, there are quite a few things we disagree on, but we're near 100% in sync here--I'll hoist an extra Dr Pepper to ya tonight. +1, sir!

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" Just a little somethin' to think 'bout, y'all...

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Dix, there are quite a few things we disagree on, but we're near 100% in sync here--I'll hoist an extra Dr Pepper to ya tonight. +1, sir!

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" Just a little somethin' to think 'bout, y'all...

Bottoms up, Sir! Viva la Mr. Pibb! -dix

 

[Fatdutchman]

" What are you afraid of?
.

NOTHING! And that's the whole point!!!

The whole idea that people "don't need them anymore" is BS. Has tyranny taken a holiday? Is it gone forever, never to return? Why, even I don't live in that Xanadu!

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the citizens of other countries, whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." James Madison.

This is the basis for the American form of Liberty. The individual has the power to control his own destiny, and furthermore, to defend himself, his family, and his property. He also has the power to help direct the course of the nation, and redirect the course of his government, if necessary. For those raised under various forms of socialism, this is a bizarre and foreign concept, I'm sure. Sadly, it is becoming that way in America, as people abandon the principles that really did make America great in order to be like the rest of the world. Liberty is gleefully being traded for license.

 

[Spitfire]

First of all, I am NOT raised in any socialist country.
Besides being the worlds oldest monarchy, we are also one of the oldest democracies in the world.

Secondly I dont find US gunlaws bizarre or foreign - just plain old fashioned. Out of date with everything a large part of the world is striving against. Peace.
And this is where I step down my soapbox.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

NOTHING! And that's the whole point!!!

The whole idea that people "don't need them anymore" is BS. Has tyranny taken a holiday? Is it gone forever, never to return? Why, even I don't live in that Xanadu!

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the citizens of other countries, whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." James Madison.

This is the basis for the American form of Liberty. The individual has the power to control his own destiny, and furthermore, to defend himself, his family, and his property. He also has the power to help direct the course of the nation, and redirect the course of his government, if necessary. For those raised under various forms of socialism, this is a bizarre and foreign concept, I'm sure. Sadly, it is becoming that way in America, as people abandon the principles that really did make America great in order to be like the rest of the world. Liberty is gleefully being traded for license.

Right on target FDm! Call me old fashioned or outdated by I'll take American sovereignty over 'the rest of the world' any, any day. And correctly stated Sir, liberty is not license; A lesson for us all. You make me proud!
-dixon cannon

 

[jamespowers]

Pretty scary:
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. Subsequently, from 1915 to 1917, 1.5-million Armenians, deprived of the means to defend themselves, were rounded up and killed.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. Then, from 1929 to 1953, approximately 20-millon dissidents were rounded up and killed.
In 1938 Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945 over 13-million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill, union leaders, Catholics and others, unable to fire a shot in protest, were rounded up and killed.
In 1935, China established gun control. Subsequently, between 1948 and 1952, over 20-million dissidents were rounded up and killed.
In 1956, Cambodia enshrined gun control. In just two years (1975-1977) over one million "educated" people were rounded up and killed.
In 1964, Guatemala locked in gun control. From 1964 to 1981, over 100,000 Mayan Indians were rounded up and killed as a result of their inability to defend themselves.
In 1970, Uganda got gun control. Over the next nine years over 300,000 Christians were rounded up and killed.
Over 56-million people have died because of gun control in the last century ...

MISCELLANEOUS STATISTICS
Number of firearms in America: 228,000,000
Number of firearm owning households: At least 50,600,000
Projected firearm owning households in America: 60-85 million
Number of guns used in crimes: 450,000
Percentage of guns used in crimes: 0.09%
Violent crimes committed daily by paroled prisoners:
Murders: 14
Rapes: 48
Robberies: 578
*BATF estimates 1999

As for the origins of the second amendment:

Pennsylvania (1776): That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination, to, and governed by, the civil power. (Simplified in 1790 to read “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”)
Vermont (1777): That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State -- and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power.
Massachusetts (1780): The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of the legislature; and the military power shall always be held in an exact subordination to the civil authority, and be governed by it.
North Carolina (1776): That the people have a right to bear arms, for the defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

I could go on and on about the different interations of the second amendment and how it is actually to be read but....oh might as well:
2nd Amendment drafting and editing
James Madison had the duty of drafting the Bill of Rights from proposed amendments submitted by the states, and most coming from state constitutions. The Bill of Rights went through several revisions. The initial version of the 2nd Amendment read as follows:
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a
well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free
country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be
compelled to render military service in person.
The second drafting of the 2nd Amendment saw a rearrangement of the justification and rights clauses, but no change in the intents and purposes therein:
A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms.
Four further revisions removed objectionable concepts (such as the “conscientious objector” clause). It is clear from these origins and first drafts, and from contemporary commentaries on the clause that the original intent was to secure an individual right. The commentaries of St. George Tucker (The American Blackstone) and Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, both of whom were federal jurists and chronologically close to the authoring of the amendment, bear this out.
Also worth noting are state arms clauses that appeared shortly after ratification of the Bill of Rights, which also reflect the people’s intent:
Kentucky (1792): That the right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
Tennessee (1796): That the freemen of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence.
Kentucky (1799): That the rights of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
Ohio (1802): That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State; and as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be kept up, and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to the civil power.
Indiana (1816): That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State, and that the military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power.
Mississippi (1817): Every citizen has a right to bear arms, in defence of himself and the State.
Connecticut (1818): Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.
Maine (1819): Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence; and this right shall never be questioned.
Alabama (1819): That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defence of himself and the state.
Missouri (1820): That the people have the right peaceably to assemble for their common good, and to apply to those vested with the powers of government for redress of grievances by petition or remonstrance; and that their right to bear arms in defence of themselves and of the State cannot be questioned.

Facts can be hard to get around. [huh]

Regards,

J

 

[Dixon Cannon]

First of all, I am NOT raised in any socialist country.
Besides being the worlds oldest monarchy, we are also one of the oldest democracies in the world.

Secondly I dont find US gunlaws bizarre or foreign - just plain old fashioned. Out of date with everything a large part of the world is striving against. Peace.
And this is where I step down my soapbox.

I think one of our Founders put it this way:

"They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety (Peace), deserve neither Liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin
Historical Review of Pennsylvania 1759

True today as it was then. Never old fashioned or out of date.

-dixon cannon

 

[Diamondback]

Right on target FDm! Call me old fashioned or outdated by I'll take American sovereignty over 'the rest of the world' any, any day.

"What is popular is not always right, what is right is not always popular."--Anonymous

"You can't keep what you can't protect."

 

[Fletch]

[...] guns are the tools we use to preserve Liberty. And, as those "brilliant stategists and leaders" knew who founded this Republic, that gun ownership is the first defense against tyranny. [...] I would use it for it's Constitutional purpose - to defend my Life, Liberty, and Property. Thank God for this Constitutional Republic and the Liberty it provides!

And thank God we still have people capable of capitalizing key words without irony. It makes it easy to spot those who believe we're still a small agrarian country run by propertied men, or that we ought to be governed as such.

 

[thebadmamajama]

Oh, darn...I thought this was the fedora lounge gun show. Guess the bicep room is next door.... Walks off in shame

 

[Nathan Flowers]

This is political.