Grammar Geeks

[scotrace]

It's clunky, but easier to push across the palate than there're. The same issue - though not a grammatical one - holds for the word mirror (Thinks: mirror or meer. How does one pronounce it?). R following R necessitates some rolling. A rolled R is not an easy sound to make. Therefore some descend to There's. Much easier and no embarrassed mangling of the rolled R.

bk

Can anyone name any English 'r' words which are rolled by American speakers?
Baron, you've grown up hearing a rolled R, so you insert one when needed. Americans, hearing such a thing only in movies or on television, would have less trouble saying "there're" without any hint of a roll.
Though one usually hears "meer" or "mirrah."

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I brought it up because i find it difficult to say there're. The word necessitates a break between the two R phonemes if it's to have any meaning. It's more difficult to jump from an R into an R with no intervening vowel than it is to go from R to R with an O between them (mirror). I find that there're (i've been practising) often becomes therrrrre. Just an extended there rather than a distinct word (or combination of words).

This doesn't make there's correct; just easier to say.

Let's all just agree to say there are

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Can anyone name any English 'r' words which are rolled by American speakers?

Rubarb, warshing machine ...

bk

 

[Pilgrim]

I teach graduate courses online and there is a real duality to my approach. I use class discussion extensively, and in that medium I'm very open about writing style, slang and casual wording...unless the comment is less than coherent.

When students turn in written papers, they find that I'm a Writing Nazi. I turn back about 1/3 of all papers to be re-written, and I grade down for incomplete thoughts, consistent misspellings, problems in structure and other sins.

Why? Because if you're a graduate student, your writing must consistently demonstrate that you can write at a graduate student level. If you can't, I'm not going to pass you. Period. When you hit the street with a graduate degree that I had a hand in, you will be able to write clearly, consicely and accurately.

 

[Twitch]

Being a writer I have no desire to inhibit anyone's creativity with language as style differences are what make things interesting.

The only thing I find retarded is the internet speak-- idunno when i kin git bye ur place to pick up those 2 lamps. ill try 2 be over their asap

 

[Baron Kurtz]

National Is/Are Awareness Day - A day for all highly paid broadcast reporters and anchors to reacquaint themselves with the correct singular/plural usage of the linking verbs is and are.

I'm in favour of a National (even International!) Either/Or, Neither/Nor day.

bk

 

[Pilgrim]

We need a national "you're / your" day, and:

.....a national "your's / yours " day

Public floggings would be an integral part of the festivities.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Public floggings would be an integral part of the festivities.

Why, of course!

bk

 

[Matthew Dalton]

This is all, in my view a symptom of lack of reading at an early age.

LEARN BY READING
...

I shudder every time I'm looking at some peer's profile on a site, myspace or similar and their book section says something like "LOL books". It's perhaps six in every ten profiles that make light of reading, two in ten simply state they don't read, the other two list books like 'Harry Potter' and 'The Da Vinci Code' and I'm glad to even see that.

I would never claim to be fantastic in grammar, but I do my best and that's all I expect of others.

I would like to know how well spelling and grammar is taught in your countries. In mine they don't do it very well at all! It's getting worse and people are just now starting to notice.

There was an incident recently where a political figure of some kind here spent thousands of dollars of tax-payer's money sending his staff to english classes. He claimed the memos and reports they sent him were so bad that he couldn't understand them.

 

[Samsa]

Language changes, and those changes are dictated over time by the people who speak the language, and not by some committee.

If we all always did things by the 'book' in language, no language change would occur.....old english anyone?

:eusa_clap When considering grammar, I'm always torn between annoyance at common errors and feeling that language should be left to the people. I will not have an academician telling me how to speak!

Ignorance of literature tends to bother me a lot more than poor grammar. That, along with the fact that people don't seem to read much anymore. Or, if they do, it's Stephen King...

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The problem comes in when the "creative" use of language makes something unreadable and/or changes the meaning of what is being said (through inappropriate use of words - inane is a recent example from our very FLounge - and incorrect punctuation). One must at the very least be accurate and understandable in what one writes. Often this is not the case.

And i wouldn't have an academic telling people how to write either. Generally they're referring too much to Strunck and White and sticking to the "rules" overly rigidly. This is something up-with which i cannot put.

bk

 

[Caledonia]

This is why I joined the FL: so many things to learn, so many things to do. Now I have to go apologise to all my colleagues, past, present, and future, and they are legion, for all the interminable nagging about their grammatical dysfunctionalism. I know noooothing!

 

[Etienne]

It seems to me that both the lack of reading and the inability to speak and spell are inseparable. Seeing correct spelling, grammar and context in print reinforces the same in articulation and writing. It baffles me how one can read, "He and I went to the same college" yet speak the words, "Him and I went to the same college" and not notice the disconnect. Grrrr...

 

[Mike in Seattle]

Mentioned above, one that drives me nuts is using "LOL" over and over again. It's fine as an Internet abbreviation in chats and messages, but it's turning up everywhere. I was reading an article recently and the author was quoting some incident. It was a well-known author, which is what really surprised me, but I can't remember the magazine or article or author at the moment.

The quote was something like "I told him, 'You're really a jerk - LOL!' " I wanted to write the magazine and suggest they outlaw that three-letter combination, and should tell the writer it should be written along the lines of "I told him, 'You're really a jerk!' and we laughed." Or maybe I'm wrong and this guy actually did say the letters L, O and L. But somehow, I think not.

And if we're proposing "you're/your" and "it's/its" and "either/or - neither/nor" days, let's have one for "their/there/they're" as well. And I've a few other single words that drive me nuts like "orientate" and "participator" and "reoccur" but I'll save those for another discussion.

 

[Matthew Dalton]

The thing that gets me about "LOL" is that it's just a period to most people. They're sitting their typing it over and over and you know that they're sitting at their desk probably not even grinning when they do it.

Also, I briefly went to an internet cafe once and people indeed said "LOL" to eachother in actual speech. I got out of there as quickly as I could and never went back, that and other things there scared the hell out of me.

 

[funneman]

My old Boss the English Major used to walk into the Control Room after I'd blown a word in a newscast, spell the word out and ask me how to pronounce it. If I answered incorrectly he would recoil as hit struck by a fist to the face and then very dramatically, very quietly reply "..look it up." This meant I was to look it up, and report back to him right away to repeat the correct pronouciation.

As much as I hated that man, the lessons learned has served me for over thirty years.

 

[Senator Jack]

In the same utterly ridiculous vein as LOL, businessmen are now using the technological term 'ping' to mean contact.

Example

Mr. Smith: Where's Goldfarb when we need him?
Mr. Jones: (getting on the phone) Hold on. I'll see if I can ping him.

As an IT pro, I've already had some misunderstandings with this usage. Hopefully, it won't catch on. (Yes, I use the idiomatic 'hopefully' here )

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Caledonia]

I abhor the use of Text in emails and now it's coming through in everyday correspondence. Children are growing up, and have already grown up, unable to read, write, or do arithmetic, and can't see anything wrong with that. It is degrading in every sense and use of the word. Can we also outlaw overuse of certain words, like "like" for example, "so", "actually", "appalling" (everything is appalling!), and I have to go UK here. "that's disgusting that is". Oooh I hate that one. Here it all is in a sentence. I am so like appalled that she actually like did that, because it was so like appalling, and well, actually that's disgusting that is!

 

[Pilgrim]

I brought it up because i find it difficult to say there're. The word necessitates a break between the two R phonemes if it's to have any meaning.

I can honestly say that I've never heard "there're" spoken by anyone. I've read it in more than one work, but it's just not a normal part of speech for anyone I've met. I wouldn't be too concerned about how to enunciate it.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Children are growing up, and have already grown up, unable to read, write, or do arithmetic

Dun't help o'course that we're promoting this as the three Rs.

Mr. Jones: (getting on the phone) Hold on. I'll see if I can ping him.

If only they would use the ping on these people! (3 wood i think would work well. Was ping a golf club brand in the US too? Was i the UK.)

bk