Graffiti on a church.

[Feraud]

Yes. I can understand it if they're caught in a situation where it's about defending a perso, but all things considered, I do feel that here in the "First world" we culturally put too much emphasis on property crimes over other things, reflecting a rather worrying sense of priorities.

This reminds me of an NPR program following a recent school tragedy here in the U.S. It was noted that regardless of statistics people prioritize their fears and safety based on mostly groundless assumptions. On a personal level, I've observed neighbors freak out when a home is robbed but barely bat an eyelash when the latest investment banker is exposed at stealing a few hundred million.

 

[Dickie Teenie]

Though I'm willing to bet that very few of "us" would rather live there.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

While I completely disagree with the marginalization of women that is unfortunately prevalent in those parts of the world, I do at times find myself agreeing with their approach to the same kind of crimes found here in the western world (not so-called political or religious "crimes") being that I've had the rather unpleasant experience of having been robbed at gunpoint some years ago.

 

[John in Covina]

I agree. Violence begets violence, where does it end.

When all the bad guys are dead haven't you watch any Schwarzenegger movies.

 

[John in Covina]

It is especially ironic to see religious folks paint with such a broad brush and be the first ones to want to kick some rear end over what amounts to some paint. Sometimes our religious lessons go quickly out the window.


A few pages back Baron Kurtz mentioned young people having underdeveloped sections of the brain which can preclude some from making responsible decisions. Anyone who has raised a child knows exactly what this means!
Today I came across an online article where a 16 year old stole jewelry at at house party. 15 years later she found the rings at home and with her remorseful adult brain wrote a letter to return the rings.
Here's the article if anyone is interested-
http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blog...old-rings-223408861--abc-news-topstories.html

I know how frustrating it is to have your place vandalised. I've experienced graffiti on my home and damage to my car being parked on the street.

It does amount to more than just paint,it is a somewhat planned act that basically is calculated to insight hurt and or fear by someone representing a historic antagonist. One would never say Swastikas on a synogog was just paint. This is meant togo beyond that.

 

[John in Covina]

This reminds me of an NPR program following a recent school tragedy here in the U.S. It was noted that regardless of statistics people prioritize their fears and safety based on mostly groundless assumptions. On a personal level, I've observed neighbors freak out when a home is robbed but barely bat an eyelash when the latest investment banker is exposed at stealing a few hundred million.

This is very true. Most people think that their investments are insured so they think they'll be reimbursed at some point by insurance or the government. However, when something happens and it relates to their life like a neighbors house is robbed that does actually cut close to home and gets personalized. It is related to the we not concerned until our own ox gets gored.

The warning I'll say is do we make our best decisions when working out of fear and in a high emotional state? There is always the statement about clearer heads prevailing.

 

[John in Covina]

They probably have far fewer arrests for vandalism, but I suspect they have a lot more arrests for women driving cars.

There was a time when when there was a cost to bad behavior. 40 years ago if you got caught graffitti-ing a church it would be bad enough dealing with the cops, next the court system, then there would be the shame you'd bring on your family and finally what your dad would do and what your mom would say that would wilt your insides. You might get your butt tanned too.

Today it's all about trying to understand what's wrong with a child and why they did something. They get clucked over by counselers and never feel a connection to the reality of what they done. This is the core of resitivism (sp) repeat offenders, they pay no price and never feel that they are doing bad things, they get to blame everyone else for what they do. True there are some kids you'll never reach, but training them to consider themselves victims when everyone else is getting hurt is a really stupid answer.

Spare the rod - spoil the child.

 

[John in Covina]

If we caught them you can be sure they'd get a serious talking to while waiting for the sherrifs to come.
The church is not given the sword of justice, that is what government was given.

A good friend of mine said: "The devil is working overtime to try to hurt us so we must be doing something right."

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

It does amount to more than just paint,it is a somewhat planned act that basically is calculated to insight hurt and or fear by someone representing a historic antagonist. One would never say Swastikas on a synogog was just paint. This is meant togo beyond that.

At the same time I have a problem with the concept of hate crimes. To me a crime is a crime regardless of its motivation and should be prosecuted for the relevant offenses be it theft, vandalism, etc. Besides, aren't violent crimes such as murder and assault already hate crimes by their very nature? I think it's safe to say that there are very few murderers who murdered somebody because they loved them.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

O.K. when talking of crimes and laws, we can make more laws all day long, but who normally thinks of what the law would do before violating the law? We do. Those that are doing the crimes do not.

If you connect all that has been discussed in the entire thread here, you see one thing or two....number one, we may not all agree on every topic, but we are "here" because we do sense the good parts of thoughts from one another, like birds of a feather we flock together...(no laying eggs yet now..lol) and two, because we do know how to do good things, trust me you can think I am ornery as all get out, or think I never take anything serious at all, but I do, we all appreciate good over bad...right over wrong. Honesty...at least what we try to view as being honest. I myself think it is a key part of what is missing in many people's life. If you notice how many members of the lounge are what you could call a all out knuckle head and do nothing more than to jump on the lounge and make a mess by degrading others or worse? It does not happen....why? Because someone being an idiot sees fairly soon we are not idiots and they don't fit in. So they don't stick around.

Taking this all in for me makes me think if those that have issues in thinking and living their life can be taught some good manners and a better way to act, it makes it less likely they would make choices that are criminal and destructive. How many of these morons that doe things wrong, have no one showing them something decent, a hobby, an interest in science or god forbid, "hats and vintage leather coats or fashion"!!!!! lol!

You see, I am not always going to generate a thought or a belief that you personally will think is 100%, but, you are not seeing me on "america's most wanted".....and why? Geez, I am maybe too camera shy! lol! But really it is because there is no crime worth my losing my freedom for. None.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

Very well said LMH2.
HD

Thanks

 

[sheeplady]

It does amount to more than just paint,it is a somewhat planned act that basically is calculated to insight hurt and or fear by someone representing a historic antagonist. One would never say Swastikas on a synogog was just paint. This is meant togo beyond that.

I think it's substantially different. Satanists haven't wiped out millions of Christians in systematic acts of unbelievable cruelty in the past 100 years. It's unlikely that you have a direct family member who was killed by a Satanist just because they were Christian. Most Jewish people have at least one direct ancestor who was killed or interned by the Nazis. It's comparing a symbol that represents hatred and mass genocide to some symbols that (while upsetting, I am sure) have no where near the amount of murder and systematic hatred invoked.

When a Jewish person finds a Swastika on their home or their place of worship, not only is that indicating a hatred of the religion in question, but it's also indicating that vandal admires the genocide of the Jews, and in some cases, is suggesting further genocide starting with the people in that temple or home. I doubt you felt personally unsafe in the days following the graffiti incident. I have known Jewish individuals who have been made to feel like their life is in danger.

 

[CharleneC]

It does amount to more than just paint,it is a somewhat planned act that basically is calculated to insight hurt and or fear by someone representing a historic antagonist. One would never say Swastikas on a synogog was just paint. This is meant togo beyond that.

In a physical sense it is just paint. But the interpretation of the paint is another thing altogether.

 

[CharleneC]

At the same time I have a problem with the concept of hate crimes. To me a crime is a crime regardless of its motivation and should be prosecuted for the relevant offenses be it theft, vandalism, etc. Besides, aren't violent crimes such as murder and assault already hate crimes by their very nature? I think it's safe to say that there are very few murderers who murdered somebody because they loved them.

Isn't the term "hate crime" used to describe a crime against an identifiable group? As such a typical murder of an individual would not be considered a hate crime unless it somehow could be related to that individual's inclusion in an identifiable group, such as blacks, asians, gays, etc.

 

[CharleneC]

If you connect all that has been discussed in the entire thread here, you see one thing or two....number one, we may not all agree on every topic, but we are "here" because we do sense the good parts of thoughts from one another, like birds of a feather we flock together...(no laying eggs yet now..lol) and two, because we do know how to do good things, trust me you can think I am ornery as all get out, or think I never take anything serious at all, but I do, we all appreciate good over bad...right over wrong. Honesty...at least what we try to view as being honest. I myself think it is a key part of what is missing in many people's life. If you notice how many members of the lounge are what you could call a all out knuckle head and do nothing more than to jump on the lounge and make a mess by degrading others or worse? It does not happen....why? Because someone being an idiot sees fairly soon we are not idiots and they don't fit in. So they don't stick around.

But don't most people think they are honest and doing the right thing, even if they are deceiving themselves? Or even if they are incorrect in their belief that their action is the right one?

 

[tonyb]

I think you guys are on to something.

In a culture where a thief has a hand chopped off, and a slanderer and/or blasphemer has his tongue cut out, we can bet that adultery would be all but unheard of.

 

[Maguire]

There was a time when when there was a cost to bad behavior. 40 years ago if you got caught graffitti-ing a church it would be bad enough dealing with the cops, next the court system, then there would be the shame you'd bring on your family and finally what your dad would do and what your mom would say that would wilt your insides. You might get your butt tanned too.

Today it's all about trying to understand what's wrong with a child and why they did something. They get clucked over by counselers and never feel a connection to the reality of what they done. This is the core of resitivism (sp) repeat offenders, they pay no price and never feel that they are doing bad things, they get to blame everyone else for what they do. True there are some kids you'll never reach, but training them to consider themselves victims when everyone else is getting hurt is a really stupid answer.

Spare the rod - spoil the child.

Amen!

I agree with Mr. Brunswick on hate crime laws, i think its insane that someone can get some minor punishment for a heinnous crime, then a tremendous punishment for the same crime under the guise of "violating civil rights" or "hate crime." Any and every crime is a "hate crime" insofar as it is a crime of passion. Calling crime Y a "regular crime" and crime X a "hate crime" is politicization of something that need not be politicized. If the content of graffiti is threatening, that should of course be taken into account, vs. just someone "tagging" their name or whatnot, but the cost of a free society is having to tolerate people who do not have our political ideals, or may have a bigoted view of the world. In a way, we all do, the point is to find common ground when and where we can.

As for the issue of adultery and the like- absolutely in countries with stringent punishment moral crimes are far less frequent- but one can NEVER stop adultery, womanizing, drug use entirely, and that should be accepted.. human nature isn't perfect, and sometimes even the worst threats won't work. What is MOST important (and this is true of all societies) is social taboos. If one can do anything one wants and not only is there no legal repercussion but no social repercussion, then whats the incentive to be a decent upstanding person when being a womanizing drunk will get one as far, for example? Back in the day the concept of family honor and shame meant something, it doesn't have to be taken to the extremes we hear about on the news from time to time, but one should have pride in one's family name and do ones best to uphold the family's honor in all one's endeavors. but then again, today bad behavior is no longer "bad" since everything has become relative. Laws help, but social taboos against adultery, promiscuity, drug use, and or even bad language will always be more effective.
I'll use islamic countries and alcohol as an example- our own prohibition failed despite laws, because there was no social taboo against drinking. In most muslim countries drinking is haram and therefore banning it is far easier, since there is a social pressure to avoid this. Do people drink? Absolutely! But overall these countries do not have a reputation for alcoholism that one finds in say, Eastern Europe, my own Ireland, or the United States, and the same prohibition law applied would probably be effective. Thats all from me.

 

[CharleneC]

I think you guys are on to something.

In a culture where a thief has a hand chopped off, and a slanderer and/or blasphemer has his tongue cut out, we can bet that adultery would be all but unheard of.

In countries where hands are cut off and tongues are cut out, the punishment for adultery is stoning. Only women are stoned to death. It does not happen to the men. When a man grows tired of his wife, he simply accuses her of adultery and she will most certainly be killed. You are taking this far too lightly. So much for your values!

 

[Feraud]

Today it's all about trying to understand what's wrong with a child and why they did something. They get clucked over by counselers and never feel a connection to the reality of what they done. This is the core of resitivism (sp) repeat offenders, they pay no price and never feel that they are doing bad things, they get to blame everyone else for what they do. True there are some kids you'll never reach, but training them to consider themselves victims when everyone else is getting hurt is a really stupid answer.

Spare the rod - spoil the child.

For what it's worth there are plenty of parents today who beat their kids with varying results. Many children never see the inside of a health professional's office. Those who do are not there to be trained as victims. They are likely emotionally disturbed due to screwed up families (likely adults who hypocritically fail to spare the rod on themselves) and we should want these children to get specific attention.

In practice I've found disciplining to be similar to teaching a child. You have to use what works. Not all respond to learning their ABCs and math tables by rote. Babies do not all walk, talk, and emotionally develop at the same speed. Children do not respond to discipline the same way. Some kids learn from a boot in the rear while others require a more considered form of discipline.

 

[Edward]

At the same time I have a problem with the concept of hate crimes. To me a crime is a crime regardless of its motivation and should be prosecuted for the relevant offenses be it theft, vandalism, etc. Besides, aren't violent crimes such as murder and assault already hate crimes by their very nature? I think it's safe to say that there are very few murderers who murdered somebody because they loved them.

They are typically based on the concept of deterrence. If I whack a guy for making a pass at my girl, I get done for assault and battery (and rightly so). Maybe I learn from it. Either way, that's not a circumstance likely to happen again. If I assault a guy for being black, or Jewish, or gay.... Well, there are a lot more black, Jewish and gay guys out there. Chances of me reoffending in a similar manner are potentially higher, thus higher penalty required for deterrence. Then there's also - and this is part of hate speech offences too - the simple issue of indicating the state's disapproval of certain prejudices, indicating that certain attitudes, or at least acting on them to the extent that another is done physical harm or placed in real danger of being the victim of the same, are unacceptable in our society. Sometimes, the law does have to be ahead of a society in order to protect minority communities.

I think you guys are on to something.

In a culture where a thief has a hand chopped off, and a slanderer and/or blasphemer has his tongue cut out, we can bet that adultery would be all but unheard of.

In theory it is possible to have a crime-free society, though it would be a challenge finding many people willing to bow to the level of authoritarianism and brutality that it would require.