Got Genealogy?

[nightandthecity]

Hey Bob, the Scots are British. And so are the Scotch-Irish (Ulster protestants) if that's what you mean (as opposed to "Scottish and Irish" which is not the same thing). In fact the Scotch-Irish are the most fervently British people in the British Isles and the average Ulster Scot would sooner have his tongue cut out than say "Erin go Bragh" because it means Ireland for Ever and even worse it's in Gaelic. They originally went to Ulster to steal the land from the Irish and to "extirpate" the Gaelic language. They've been at war with the Irish pretty much ever since. So if your ancestors are Scotch-Irish maybe it's you who owe the reparations.....

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Then what am I talking about...

Help me out then...My Mother's parents were Irish. My Grand Pop was McGrath, and was from England of Irish ancestry, Cork. My Grand Mom's name was Green and her Grandparents were both Irish and were from Derry. My Dads Father was a Cherokee Indian and his mother was a Cambell from Kentucky. Her lineage is sketchy but it's believed that her Great Grandparents were from Scotland.

By the way My Dad's Great Grandfather listed his race as black on all documents we have been able to locate. Maybe he was, but the story goes that back then it was better to be thought of a Black than Indian. Who knows for sure, it makes for pleasant conversation though.

So help me out Night...

 

[nightandthecity]

That?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s very interesting Bob. From what you said earlier I think your family is mainly from northern Virginia and Appalachia? Anyway, a lot of what follows is presuming your ancestry is mainly ?¢‚Ǩ?ìold stock?¢‚Ǩ? from the south-eastern states, hope that?¢‚ǨÀús right?¢‚Ǩ¬¶

McGrath is definitely a native Irish name, and very common in the Cork area - go there and you?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ll fall over McGraths on very street corner (especially if you sample the local cider). Of course if he actually emigrated from England it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s possible he was of mixed English/Irish origin - always remember that a surname only shows one of many ancestral lines. A lot of English people have some fairly recent Irish ancestry due to the high levels of Irish immigration over the last 300 years. Indeed, it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s even more complex than that, because before the Irish started migrating to England, the English used to migrate to Ireland, and there was a lot of English settlement in Cork from the middle-ages to the 18th century, so even the immediate Cork ancestry could have already been a bit mixed. With ethnicity its often a case of how far back do you want to go, and which of the many lines do you want to follow?¢‚Ǩ¬¶.

If your Granny was of Derry origin and called Green that particular surname line was probably Anglo-Irish (Irish protestant of English origin). Green is primarily an English name and is generally regarded in Derry as an English settler name. It is possible that it is Scotch-Irish (Irish protestant of lowland Scottish origin) because there are some Greens in Scotland as well, and it is possibly native Irish, because English and Scots surnames were often adopted as equivalents to Gaelic Irish names - Green for example can hide a Houneen or a MacGlashan. But the odds are pretty high it is Anglo-Irish in your case.

Going back as far as your Granny?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s Granny is a long way - I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢d guess we are talking the 18th century migration of Irish protestants to colonial America. These people are generally referred to as the Scotch-Irish but in truth a lot of them were Anglo-Irish, a few were native Irish, and it seems even northern English and Scots-born were sometimes classed as Scotch-Irish. Your Kentucky Cambell line, however, will most likely be Scotch-Irish in the true sense (Ulster protestant of Scots origin) though it is possible the line came straight from Scotland, or is native Irish (the name is known in Ireland independent of Scottish immigration) or even an English Gamble - this name was sometimes Scotticized in mainly Scotch-Irish communities?¢‚Ǩ¬¶.surnames were a lot more fluid back then which means geneology can be full of sudden surprises! For example, there were as many German immigrants as Scotch-Irish in the 18th century south, but their names have for the most part been completely Britishized and as an ethnic group they have largely been forgotten - Mullers became Millers, Lowensteins became Livingstones etc. ?¢‚Ǩ¬¶?¢‚Ǩ¬¶and CAMPBELL sometimes hides a KIMMEL. But again, the odds are high that this is a true Scotch-Irish line in your geneology.

Your black great-great-grandad is not unusual. A lot of white southerners have some black ancestry, especially in the Appalachian/Piedmont region, just as most black Americans have 20-25% European ancestry. All those laws against miscegenation were passed because it was happening - you don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t generally pass laws against stuff that doesn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t happen. It was particularly common in the 18th century back-country and over the border in Indian territory. Most white immigrants to the colonial era south went as indentured servants - temporary slaves. Many were convicts (that?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s where Britain sent its convicts before Australia). When their time expired they often headed west to find some independence and freedom - as did runaway black slaves, and even free blacks escaping endemic tidewater racism. Intermarriage between poor whites, blacks, and Indians became common in the Appalachian/Piedmont frontier region. Many blacks and whites were accepted into Indian tribes. This is probably the roots of the so-called melungeons (?¢‚Ǩ?ìmixed people?¢‚Ǩ?) in Appalachia. When eastern civilization caught up the state had to classify these people and under the one-drop principle they often became ?¢‚Ǩ?ìblack?¢‚Ǩ?. In reality they were mixed?¢‚Ǩ¬¶as we all are really, it just depends how far back you want to go. Of course your ancestor may have been of sole or mainly African origin, but the odds are high he was mixed Indian/white/black.

It would seem that like all Americans you?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re a bit of a melting pot, though clearly your recent ancestry is mainly from the British Isles - and probably a lot more English than you realized, as well as the Scottish and Irish lines (about 80% of the people in the British Isles are English so it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s only to be expected).

I bet most Loungers to find this post haven?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t read this far, but I love this stuff, if you are interested in roots and history why start at 1930! Bob, I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m always ready to help on geneology, surnames, and colonial American history.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Thanks, Night,,,,Wow!

Correct, Northern Virginia/Appalachia. My Mom's parents and relatives settled around the DC area. My Dads parents and relatives were from Virginia/WVA/Kentucky/Tenn/Ohio/Indiana. Ancestery is a hard thing to tell on my Dads side because of lack of record keeping of the 'Hillbillys'. My Dad's father's name was Daniel Roscoe Holmes, I know Holmes is English. But I've been told that his father or grandfather assumed or was given that name. It would make sense to me if he was a endentured servant, or slave, or Indian, or some combination of the above.

Facinating.

My Brother married a Mormon girl about 20 years ago and she is doing a wonderful job trying to trace our family tree.

 

[nightandthecity]

Always happy to help! Makes a change from our usual political shoot out!

Marrying a Mormon was a wise move on your brother?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s part. The LDS genealogy material is awesome (not a word I use often) and now mostly online. I recently traced one North Carolina line back from the 21st century to 17th century England in an evening ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú and through multiple migrations (England>Ireland>PA>VA>NC) and surname mutations (Chanley>Chandley> Chandler) Without the LDS site it would have taken years.

Hillbilly record keeping is a major problem! It starts with the indentured servants who were the main source of white immigrants in the south. They rarely appear in ships?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ records and when they do it is usually something like ?¢‚Ǩ?ìMajor Richguy, Mr and Mrs Equallyrichguys, also 300 servants?¢‚Ǩ?. In America they were little better than slaves and their identities as little regarded ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú servants don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t appear in the 1790 census for example. When they finished their time they tended to get the hell as far away from any kind of authority as they could. Plus they were usually illiterate ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú the main source of servants was southern England which had the lowest literacy rates in Britain back then.

Yes, Africans and Indians usually took on British names. But even white Britons and Europeans had a more flexible attitude to surnames back then, especially as regards spelling ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú hence the ?¢‚Ǩ?ìChanley?¢‚Ǩ? mutation above.

I wish you all luck with the family tree!

 

[Mycroft]

The Mormon librery is great, my Grandpa wrote a family history book and it took him a while, but since he only knew his side of the family he had to reaserch my Grandma's alot. Man, did this book come out good, but it needs lots of editing . Oh, I am Hungarian, Gypsey, Russian, Polish, Austrian, Ukrainian, French(ok, I know), and other parts of the former Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

 

[nightandthecity]

I have real respect for the hundreds of amateur genealogists beavering away like your grandad. It?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s an ever expanding, Aegean stables kind of project and you can only ever hope to follow a few ancestral lines. The only thing that makes it manageable is that you can rarely go beyond a few hundred years! (proper records are really an invention of the last 200 years). Your ancestry is a pyramid with you at the top and the bottom grows ever bigger. Try multiplying your great- greats! If you take a generation as 20 years then only 20 generations ago gives you more than a million ancestral lines to follow! A mere 30 generations takes you back to the year 1400 at which stage you have more than a billion ?¢‚Ǩ?ìgreat-great etc?¢‚Ǩ? ancestors which is more than the number of people on the earth at that time?¢‚Ǩ¬¶..and it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s not long (I think about 40 generations?) before you have more than there have ever existed people! This is where it gets truly mind boggling: the human population is a pyramid growing in the other direction and eventually your pyramid will intersect it. The explanation of course is that (a) we are all ultimately related (b) a lot of regional inbreeding takes place and some of your lines will share ancestors?¢‚Ǩ¬¶.?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ think I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ll get back to hats, my brain hurts

 

[Mycroft]

Thanks for the compliment.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

It would seem that like all Americans you?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re a bit of a melting pot, though clearly your recent ancestry is mainly from the British Isles - and probably a lot more English than you realized, as well as the Scottish and Irish lines (about 80% of the people in the British Isles are English so it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s only to be expected).

I guess I was more English than I thought, but I hope you don't tell me that I have some French in me.

What bothers me is why I can't play Basketball or dance.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Melungeons...

Melungeons is a term I have just recently been made aware of. I find this all quite facinating. One account I read says that the Melungeons have roots in Moorish Turkey. but most accounts tell of a Black/Cherokee/Powhatan Indian inter breeding. The Lost Colony of Roanoke comes up in most of the literature also.

 

[nightandthecity]

I seem to recall in one thread you saying you've given up drinking. That's why you can't dance!

Melungeon really just means "mixed ones" (or something like that). I think It was originally given by the French to mixed race people they encountered in the backcountry, then the term became more widespread. There are a a lot of stories about Roanoake and descent from moorish or portuguese pirates, and some of them may well be true for some melungeon people, but for most I think it's just the general and well documented mixing that went on in the Appalachian frontier region over the years .....various combos of black, white and Indian.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

I think you're correct.

Again...facinating...

 

[jamespowers]

Ok this baby has been moved from the other thread and we can have at it now in this thread on genealogy.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Brad Bowers]

My family history is definitely Anglo-Saxon. On my mother's side, I have family from the British Isles. Edward and Coleen Stewart came to America from Dublin in 1835. I figure they might be Scotch-Irish, with a name like Stewart, and since many Scots settled in Dublin. Their daughter Mary was born in America and she married Alfred Caywood,whose mother and father Wallace and Mary came from England to Virginia in 1830. The family story goes that Alfred Caywood met Mary Stewart on a wagon train to California in 1855, but I have yet to research it to see if that's true.

Also on my mother's side, we've traced the family lineage back to 1554. Francis, Duke of Saxe-Coburg had a son, Heinrich Weidner, who left behind his royal title and came to North Carolina prior to the Revolutionary War. His son, with the Anglicized name Henry Whitener, also fought in the war. From what I've read, he was a pioneer in the Daniel Boone tradition. This side of the family ended up, a few generations later, settling in Missouri.

On my dad's side, his mother's family, the Andersons, came over from Sweden in 1869. This side of the family ended up in Missouri. Of course, that's where my parents met.

I've had the darndest time trying to trace my Bowers surname lineage. From what little I know, they came from England, up near the border with Scotland. I haven't had any luck with the LDS website, either. One of these days I need to track down that side of the family.

Genealogy is fun stuff, and it's always exciting to find some new little snippet of information about your family that you didn't know.

Great idea for a thread, gentleman!

Brad

 

[The Wingnut]

My bloodlines are so branched and scattered that I've never bothered digging into them all that much. Sure to be a headache. From what I've been told, I'm mostly Italian (no-brainer, mom's full-blooded) with a smattering of Anglo, German, some American Native(Cherokee and Seminole, if you'll believe that), and a slew of others. Somewhere back there are ties to Woodrow Wilson, a Austrian opera singer, and a USAAF Brigadier General.

I suppose I could PAY someone to look into it, but it would get expensive...fast.

All-American mutt, that's me.

 

[matei]

Fascinating stuff indeed. We were always amazed by how many people would come over to Ireland to research their family history.

It is a bit amusing however that a large part of the people of Irish descent that I meet abroad tell me about how they are related to Brian Boru or how their family used to have a castle... We must have an unusually high proportion of castle-owning people in ancient Irish society.

I know what my ancestors did up 'til about the time of my Great-grandparents. My great-great-grandfather left Tralee, fought in the Boer War. His son was in WWI, somehow survived, split for the US, didn't like it, came back to Dublin, went back to the US and then the family came back again.

Sadly, no kings, castles or the like. My granny was related to Che Guevara's dad though. Interesting stuff... That and ?Ǭ£2 will get me a trip on the tube.
I still have his discharge papers... Fascinating stuff.

 

[Deleted member 259]

I can't stop asking my grandparents, who are 100% Irish (On my mother's side,with whom I am very close) about our geneology.

My Grandfather doesn't talk much about the past, but I know that my grandmother's side is related to Redmond O'Hanlon - A famous Highwayman and Brigand - we had a castle at some point, but it was taken over in a clan war - now it's a museum. I'm still trying to find out more information on this.

It's always been one of my favorite family topics.

 

[Lauren]

I was big into this for a while also.

My great great great......(somethingth) grandpa came over on the mormon trail, and was complete with multiple wives and all (and names like Moroni for his children). If there's one thing I'm thankful for, it is the fact that we have his handwritten family bible of geneology records back to when we came over from England. It's been fun to do take offs from there and see who else we're related to. One of our more noble ancestors was the Dudleys, who were the family of whom Robert Dudley, the favorite of Queen Elizabeth, was from (and his predicessors who were beheaded at the tower of London. Needless to see I went there this summer when I was in Britain and got to actually see where my relatives scratched into the wall). Of the more notable as well was Harriet Beecher Stowe, and the guy who donated a bunch of stuff to start Yale (though his name escapes me). We've also got some Puritans and Brigham Young and Joseph Smith rubbing shoulders (and it's very unlikely they would have gotten along). So, yes! Geneology is fun!!
Most of my research was done on LDS familysearch website (yes, it's free!)

 

[Nathan Flowers]

.

It's a good reason to visit your local public library (especially if you live in the town your family is from). Most good public libraries have all the old US Census records (up to 1930), and lots of books full of old will/deed/marriage recordings.

Since I started working in the library, I have been able to determine a lot of my family genealogy.

 

[Nathan Flowers]

.

It's a good reason to visit your local public library (especially if you live in the town your family is from). Most good public libraries have all the old US Census records (up to 1930), and lots of books full of old will/deed/marriage recordings.

Since I started working in the library, I have been able to determine a lot of my family genealogy.