Goodwear...

[Bender]

So I have kept an eye on the sales page for like the last year. Sometimes I am pretty close (within an hour or two), but I never get a reply to my emails or voicemails, so I've always assumed they just went that fast. Last night, by a luck of the draw thing, (I refreshed the page a few times at the exact right moment), I was able to reach out within just a few seconds of the listing showing up. I had it for sure, right? Nope. No reply to the email, no reply to VMs.

Now, I don't usually engage in wild conspiracy theories... but I'm beginning to have one.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

So I have kept an eye on the sales page for like the last year. Sometimes I am pretty close (within an hour or two), but I never get a reply to my emails or voicemails, so I've always assumed they just went that fast. Last night, by a luck of the draw thing, (I refreshed the page a few times at the exact right moment), I was able to reach out within just a few seconds of the listing showing up. I had it for sure, right? Nope. No reply to the email, no reply to VMs.

Now, I don't usually engage in wild conspiracy theories... but I'm beginning to have one.

As I understand it, Good Wear is mostly a made-to-order business with an exceptionally long wait list. I'm assuming you are trying to purchase off his "Sale Jackets" link? Is that accurate? If so, how do you know "sometimes I am close within an hour or two"?

 

[El Marro]

No need for conspiracy theories.
I have four GW jackets that John Chapman made for me and two others that I purchased through eBay.
John is one of the nicest guys you will ever talk to and he makes an incredible jacket. He is not great (or even good) at responding to text messages, voicemails, nor emails most of the time.
If you are patient, and lucky, you might just get a hold of him and he might just make you one of the best jackets you own.

 

[Bender]

As I understand it, Good Wear is mostly a made-to-order business with an exceptionally long wait list. I'm assuming you are trying to purchase off his "Sale Jackets" link? Is that accurate? If so, how do you know "sometimes I am close within an hour or two"?

If I was killing time, waiting on a zoom or something, I'd check the site a couple of times. If I checked at 9 AM and there was nothing, and again at 4 PM, and there was a jacket I'd buy, I was aware that potentially a full seven hours could have passed since the jacket was up and available, so when I sent my message to Goodwear expressing interest in buying said jacket, I was aware there was probably a decent number of guys in front of me, so my odds weren't great... and I wasn't annoyed when I didn't get a response and the jacket was marked sold. There were a few times I checked at say, 6 PM and nothing, and again at like 7:15 PM, and there was something available... in those instances, I knew I was pretty close. But again, those emails were never responded to either, and the jackets were eventually marked sold. That was a bit annoying, but again, if a lot of guys are checking out the sales page, it's not impossible. But this last time, like I said, was a fluke... I navigated to the page, there was nothing, clicked refresh a few times, and one popped up. I just happened to be there the moment a jacket was listed. I emailed just a few seconds after the jacket was available. Again, no response, and around 24 hours later, the jacket was marked sold. I mean... maybe there was another guy who also randomly caught the jacket the second it popped up, and types emails faster than me... who knows.

No need for conspiracy theories.
I have four GW jackets that John Chapman made for me and two others that I purchased through eBay.
John is one of the nicest guys you will ever talk to and he makes an incredible jacket. He is not great (or even good) at responding to text messages, voicemails, nor emails most of the time.
If you are patient, and lucky, you might just get a hold of him and he might just make you one of the best jackets you own.

Yeah, see, here's the thing... When I check out the various forums, there are a bunch of guys who have been waiting like years for their jackets, and then some guys who have like a dozen jackets and call him "John". He may be bad at responding to emails, but he's obviously responding (and selling to) somebody with regards to the sales jackets. I was being a little glib about the "conspiracy theory", but I'd be blind at this point not to at least consider that accusation thats been bandied about that GW sells essentially nearly exclusively within an echo chamber. Maybe the jackets really are as good as the folks who have them say. Maybe they really are the be all and end all. But I think people would be less skeptical if there were tons of guys with one jacket instead of apparently mostly a limited number of guys with multiples. Just being honest. And yeah, a little sour grapes, lol.

 

[pj_odin]

I think John would prefer to sell to regular customers rather than on a first-come-first-served basis

 

[Peter Mackin]

I think John would prefer to sell to regular customers rather than on a first-come-first-served basis

Is that just your opinion or do you know that's a fact?Do you own a goodwear?.If it was me I would sell to the 1st person who dropped a deposit. That way you widen the net for future sales,not that Goodwear is ever going to struggle to find buyers.

 

[pj_odin]

Is that just your opinion or do you know that's a fact?Do you own a goodwear?.If it was me I would sell to the 1st person who dropped a deposit. That way you widen the net for future sales,not that Goodwear is ever going to struggle to find buyers.

That's just my guess. I don't have any proof.Selling to regular customers is an easier option and avoids a lot of communication headaches.

One time I paid, but John returned the money a day later and changed the sales page to "for sale" on the third or fourth day.He didn't tell me why at the time of the refund.

I haven't got a single GW so far.I have two more orders in line, but more than one person told me that the wait time will likely be longer than a year and a half, and strangely, some people seem to be able to get several GW in a short time.

 

[jacketjunkie]

In a world of customer protection being so excessive that you can return any off the rack jacket with no justification at all and a customer mindset being so obsessive with fit and measurements that people throw a tantrum and return custom jackets when there are minimal deviations or straight up make up bullshit claims to return because of buyers remorse, for a small operation such as Goodwear you save a lot of time and trouble to sell to people you already know and who already know your product and can make an educated guess on whether a listed off the rack item fits them. It is ofcourse speculation, but if I were John and the demand for my product was what it is, out of multiple people interested in a sales item, I would always pick the guy who already bought three of my jackets in size 44 and never caused trouble after sale. As for custom purchases, I would expect him to follow through in chronological order, but even there, as a human being I perfectly understand that he might favor people he already knows and likes.

 

[Brettafett]

Have/ have had a number of GWs, almost all new orders.
Yes, the wait is well over a year and a half + And generally goes by chronological order... (One can remind him after a few years )

He works like a madman. People dont understand how busy he is and how much is involved in what he does, and thats besides emails (imagine dozens of emails every day, asking about this contract or that contract, what are the differences, types of leathers and what should I buy etc) and admin! Let alone personal life (which rarely chills in the background).

It has happened with me that I ordered a couple jackets and when my time came, during the builds, asked if he could squeeze a third one in. He did.

Often, a jacket may not fit and gets returned, he has people he knows, or return customers, who will often snap those up.
Save him time trying to 'sell' (take pics, write copy and post on his site).
Also, Im sure, there are a lot of people who email him requests, "If an A-2 size XX comes up, pleas eel the know" etc.

Best call would be to put your deposit down and get in the queue.
Get an AVI (UK or EU) or Headwind (US) to tide you over and work out best fit.
Then you have something to offer, fit-wise, when your ticket pops up.
Get yer GW, sell the AVI/ HW... Win-win.

I have a GW shinki Star 44 (more like a roomy 42) that I may be willing to part with, if interested.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

If I was killing time, waiting on a zoom or something, I'd check the site a couple of times. If I checked at 9 AM and there was nothing, and again at 4 PM, and there was a jacket I'd buy, I was aware that potentially a full seven hours could have passed since the jacket was up and available, so when I sent my message to Goodwear expressing interest in buying said jacket, I was aware there was probably a decent number of guys in front of me, so my odds weren't great... and I wasn't annoyed when I didn't get a response and the jacket was marked sold. There were a few times I checked at say, 6 PM and nothing, and again at like 7:15 PM, and there was something available... in those instances, I knew I was pretty close. But again, those emails were never responded to either, and the jackets were eventually marked sold. That was a bit annoying, but again, if a lot of guys are checking out the sales page, it's not impossible. But this last time, like I said, was a fluke... I navigated to the page, there was nothing, clicked refresh a few times, and one popped up. I just happened to be there the moment a jacket was listed. I emailed just a few seconds after the jacket was available. Again, no response, and around 24 hours later, the jacket was marked sold. I mean... maybe there was another guy who also randomly caught the jacket the second it popped up, and types emails faster than me... who knows.


Yeah, see, here's the thing... When I check out the various forums, there are a bunch of guys who have been waiting like years for their jackets, and then some guys who have like a dozen jackets and call him "John". He may be bad at responding to emails, but he's obviously responding (and selling to) somebody with regards to the sales jackets. I was being a little glib about the "conspiracy theory", but I'd be blind at this point not to at least consider that accusation thats been bandied about that GW sells essentially nearly exclusively within an echo chamber. Maybe the jackets really are as good as the folks who have them say. Maybe they really are the be all and end all. But I think people would be less skeptical if there were tons of guys with one jacket instead of apparently mostly a limited number of guys with multiples. Just being honest. And yeah, a little sour grapes, lol.

Impressive dedication. I am sorry it hasn't worked out for you. One possible explanation is that your emails are going to his spam folder. Hell, my email recently started marking mail from my mother as spam. It's damn annoying and he for sure probably doesn't have time to sort through a ton of spam. Not saying that's the reason for your frustrations, just saying could be.

I have zero experience with Good Wear other than admiring the hell out of his website and searching eBay periodically for his jackets. I don't have any confidence that contacting him will produce any results, and your experience only reinforces that belief.

 

[Bender]

In a world of customer protection being so excessive that you can return any off the rack jacket with no justification at all and a customer mindset being so obsessive with fit and measurements that people throw a tantrum and return custom jackets when there are minimal deviations or straight up make up bullshit claims to return because of buyers remorse, for a small operation such as Goodwear you save a lot of time and trouble to sell to people you already know and who already know your product and can make an educated guess on whether a listed off the rack item fits them. It is ofcourse speculation, but if I were John and the demand for my product was what it is, out of multiple people interested in a sales item, I would always pick the guy who already bought three of my jackets in size 44 and never caused trouble after sale. As for custom purchases, I would expect him to follow through in chronological order, but even there, as a human being I perfectly understand that he might favor people he already knows and likes.

This is exactly my thinking... and the "conspiracy theory" I was referring to, lol. I don't think GW is as interested in selling to new customers as they are to tried-and-trusted ones. I also think that carries over to the sale jackets... they probably choose a name they know from the emails expressing interest.

Brettafett's experience with getting a third jacket squeezed in between his two-jacket build, along with experiences I have read on this forum wherein new-to-GW guys have put their orders in and watched people who ordered after them get jackets first all seems to jibe with the idea of trusted-guys first, everybody else when/if I have time for custom jackets, and trusted-guys over new-guys in terms of who gets sales jackets.

Here's the thing: I get it. I understand GW's reasoning here, and I can't fault it... If you can sell every jacket you make to guys you've already dealt with and are loyal to the brand, then it's way less headache to deal with them than new customers, a certain percentage of which are bound to be dick-heads, lol. Relegating new customers to what amounts to a lottery for the limited time between fulfilling regular customer needs is a good way to create new customers loyal to the brand while still having a mostly head-ache free experience. Makes sense to me.

So when people with several GW jackets tell me John is a great guy, I believe them. When they tell me their buying experiences have been great, I believe that too. When they tell me that GW jackets are some of the best jackets made, I believe that they believe that (and I personally lean toward thinking that statement is more true than not), but I also have to put a big asterisk there, because participant bias is a real thing. I don't mean to offend anybody by saying that... This is current GW-free me saying now, for the record, that if GW ever decided to sell future me a jacket, then take my review of said jacket with a grain of salt. Nobody can be consciously immune to participant bias. Like I said earlier, I'm certainly salty with the sour grapes right now, but that's also just good science, lol.

This all said, maybe GW just isn't great with confrontation, but if it were me, who tends to speak politely but also speak it like it is... I'd probably have a statement on my site along the lines of this:

"I'd love to make everybody a jacket, but it's far easier and less hassle for me to sell to regular customers. There is enough demand there for nearly all order-slots and sale jackets. If you are a new customer who is interested in ordering a jacket, by all means send me an email, and I could potentially quote you an approximate time, bearing in mind that regular customer requests may be honored before yours. I have taken down the majority of the sale jackets listings, as they are offered only to regular customers, except in the event that one remains unsold for a period of time, at which point I will list it for the general public. I apologize for any inconvenience, but I am currently a small operation. I hope in the future that I am able to sustain a large influx of new customers. Thank you for your understanding"

For me, I'd be disappointed to read a statement like that, but I'd also appreciate it. I'd prefer that to feeling like the idiot in the movie at a party when they're told "Oh no... This isn't the party... This is the real party", lol.

 

[Will Zach]

Lol. A website interface that allows customers to buy an item by clicking BUY and entering a credit card number has been widely available for about 30 years. The owner of GW may be a nice guy, but is really, really weird. Or he is making the buying process difficult on purpose, to create an impression of unobtainium. One of the two. Me, you could not pay me enough to try and secure a GW jacket. What a joke.

 

[Tom71]

Interesting debate, once again.

We have had that with John Chapman, David Himel, Greg Field and - to an extent - Thedi Pampoukas. Small businesses, producing high-end stuff, and running their outfits more like an artists shop than a business...

The spectacular product that they sell gets talked about, creates a surging demand - and then the procedures fail, usually in terms of communication more than anything else.

Personally, I try to view all these great craftspeople as humans, with all their strenghts and challenges. I would think that communicatory deficits would be far easier to fix than say supply chain issues or lack of skilled workorce. In a way, I do get it that communication is a major nuisance if you would rather make a jacket than deal with your customers (especially if you are socially on the awkward side as John Chapman seems to be, other than Thedi...).

Personally, I always like to be treated as a "valued customer"; I am pretty easy on compromises on the product, if they are discussed openly, on wait times, if they are communicated and also on minor flaws in the construction. I am not so easy on going AWOL and having to chase all the time.

I did try to order a jacket from GW once, about the time when a lot of Arcadias were being posted on TFL (and a certain chef from SF/Hawaii seemed to be showing off a new GW every months or so...), but got expertly ghosted in the process. I took it as a sign that things were "not meant to be".
John is perfectly allowed to run his business as a "member´s only" affair (and I do get all the upsides in dealing with people you know and like), but this is not where I will seek to put my money (as I do also get the frustration in trying to buy and not finding out, why it won´t happen).

 

[photo2u]

So I have kept an eye on the sales page for like the last year. Sometimes I am pretty close (within an hour or two), but I never get a reply to my emails or voicemails, so I've always assumed they just went that fast. Last night, by a luck of the draw thing, (I refreshed the page a few times at the exact right moment), I was able to reach out within just a few seconds of the listing showing up. I had it for sure, right? Nope. No reply to the email, no reply to VMs.

Now, I don't usually engage in wild conspiracy theories... but I'm beginning to have one.

It is just a leather jacket. There are other makers who make the same level jacket as Goodyear. There is a beautiful black jacket on sale here.

 

[Canuck Panda]

I bought a G-1 jacket from his sale page back in August of last year. It is one of the best Foster repro out there period.

At the same time there was another Hercules cossack jacket on his sale page. I hesitated, and it was gone. I check his sale page often and they do move very fast. I also missed out the Bronco right after that too. Funny thing I was checking his sale page last night and there was the Poughkeepsie and it is gone just now.

Goodwear jackets pops up on other used channels as well, like the Classifieds here and Ebay. They're totally worth it.

 

[Bfd70]

We have a consolidated does my jacket fit thread. . There should be an “I take umbrage with this maker” thread. Same things come up regularly and spin out of control.

 

[Leather_nube]

Never heard of them. Will have to look. My name is apparently still befitting of my knowledge.

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

Will have to look.

Based on what's been said about GW, their motto may as well be "You can look but you can't touch"

 

[Brandrea33]

I’ll chime in here. I was a first time customer in the summer of 2023.

Maybe I got lucky, I’m not sure. I placed my order on line and followed up with a few friendly emails. I was told the wait would be 14 months or so and that’s almost exactly what it was.

I‘m not making excuses but from what I know, John is a one man operation. Imagining for a minute how long it takes to make a jacket, not to mention answering all the questions, and what goes into making a custom jacket, I can imagine it’s very hard to stay on top of things.

I think that’s why we’ve seen folks like Greg move toward a less “customized” model and more toward selling stock sizes (maybe with sleeve or length exceptions).
I read some of the threads here where buyers go into such detail, I can’t imagine the maker “makes” much of anything after the phone calls emails etc etc lol.

Anyway, it’s fair to feel frustrated OP, and I’m not sure what else there is to say that hasn’t already been said. If you‘re patient and have more of a take it or leave it approach, maybe you will be surprised to the upside.

FWIW, he makes an awesome jacket and it’s worth the wait.

 

[El Marro]

Bender, you make a number of fair points, and for the record I have been on both sides of the equation. When I put my first deposit down with GW about eight years ago the conventional wisdom was that you would be up line in around two years. At that time it seemed like everyone around here was putting down a deposit, and everyone was routinely posting about where they stood in the queue.
I still remember the day when a guy from Scotland proudly posted up photos of his brand new GW A-2, a guy who had put his deposit down six months after me, and years after some others here. All hell broke loose at that point, some folks asked for (and received) a refund on their deposit while the rest of us decided to stick it out.
I learned a lesson from the man who had cut the line and started sending John regular emails inquiring about the status of my order, I also began calling his phone from time to time. Imagine my surprise when he actually answered the phone one afternoon and we proceeded to talk for the next half hour about nothing but leather jackets.
And that is how I became part of the in crowd. To anyone who has been waiting years for their order I say you need to get way more frequent with your emails and phone calls. If you want to get the ball rolling. Is that fair? Well, maybe not but it worked for me.