Goodwear Leathers, the waiting starts...

[Seb Lucas]

Yes it's fine if you want to pay that money for a boutique item but I'm not a boutique kind of guy, I guess it comes down to your personal values. I am increasingly wearing Dikies work jackets and Harris Tweed. Love my $150 Brooks cafe racer but going off leather moment by moment every time the price goes north.

 

[tmitchell59]

I want a Black 44 and have a Russet 44. So, If anyone foolishly buys one of these black 44s and would rather have a Russet let me know. I can help.

They are very, very nice.

 

[Grayland]

Yes it's fine if you want to pay that money for a boutique item but I'm not a boutique kind of guy, I guess it comes down to your personal values. I am increasingly wearing Dikies work jackets and Harris Tweed. Love my $150 Brooks cafe racer but going off leather moment by moment every time the price goes north.

I hear you! The bad part is the $150 Brooks cafe racer is getting tougher to find as well.

 

[Monitor]

The side warmers Brooks version is still going for pretty low bucks, and it's just as nice.

 

[ProteinNerd]

Love my $150 Brooks cafe racer but going off leather moment by moment every time the price goes north.

The thing that concerns me, the way things are going, we will look back at the current prices in a few years and think they are reasonable compared to the new prices.

 

[Seb Lucas]

What makes you think I haven't been doing that for 30 plus years already?

 

[Mark]

Couple of times I have nearly put in an order for one of John's jackets but the wait time has put me off. Question I asked myself, are Goodwear jackets really that much better than say Aero, BK, ELC, enough to justify the wait? I struggle to imagine they are.

 

[Cooperson]

Don't tell him Pike

Seriously, from my limited experience, I'd say Johns jackets (GW) are things of beauty, just very refined.

 

[Sloan1874]

Couple of times I have nearly put in an order for one of John's jackets but the wait time has put me off. Question I asked myself, are Goodwear jackets really that much better than say Aero, BK, ELC, enough to justify the wait? I struggle to imagine they are.

I know what you mean, but I finally decided that I needed to explore this avenue myself. If it doesn't work for me, god knows how that could happen, I know the resale value means there's little or no risk in the purchase.

 

[ausreenactor]

I know the resale value means there's little or no risk in the purchase.

Don't 'bank' on it.....

 

[Sloan1874]

Really? You had a bad experience on this?

 

[ausreenactor]

Really? You had a bad experience on this?

Just a REALLY flat market at the moment. Did take a dive recently via eBay. Took the first bonafide offer after a couple of listings without success. There is a FEW A-2 on the classifieds at the moment for $750 in great shape. Size 46 (the norm these days) and still there? I took a serious look at the HLB on the GW sale page. The sleeves seemed a bit long to risk the buy. I have a DD/GW Bronco here still in the box from last August. I figure with JC's shipping address on the box it may enhance the value if I decide to move it on down the line. My wearer A-2 is getting set for our winter now.

 

[Superfluous]

Couple of times I have nearly put in an order for one of John's jackets but the wait time has put me off. Question I asked myself, are Goodwear jackets really that much better than say BK, enough to justify the wait? I struggle to imagine they are.

In a word: ABSOLUTELY!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

In a word: ABSOLUTELY!

They definitely seem to be. My biggest problem is finding a model I really want from him that is worth the wait time.

 

[Mark]

I'm not as "learned" as most of you guys are on the finer points of leather jackets but when I look at my Aero Highwayman for example I cannot imagine the sewing could be any straighter, or the zip, pocket alignment, fit, quality of the leather and so on. So what is exactly is that John can do so much better than other folks?
Not looking for a fight here just curious (I may still put that deposit down on a Good Wear one of these days).

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I'm not as "learned" as most of you guys are on the finer points of leather jackets but when I look at my Aero Highwayman for example I cannot imagine the sewing could be any straighter, or the zip, pocket alignment, fit, quality of the leather and so on. So what is exactly is that John can do so much better than other folks?
Not looking for a fight here just curious (I may still put that deposit down on a Good Wear one of these days).

Definitely a fair question and not worded for a fight at all.

I don't own any Chapman jackets specifically, but I can say why I think other makers may be worth the premium over the Aeros I have seen and the Alexander jacket I used to own (and the DD jacket I used to own). First of all, the problem with Aero and Alexander jackets is that the stitching and craftsmanship is very much dependent on who is specifically making the jacket. You could end up with a near perfect Aero/Alexander or a less than ideal one fairly easily. With brands like The Flat Head and The Real McCoys, pretty much every jacket I have seen/handled/owned has been laser perfect. When you see one in person, you have a new definition of what perfect stitching is. Does that make a difference to some? No. It shouldn't to everyone, but it does to me. My RMC jacket is so perfectly constructed that it appears as though it was made by a group of robots who were programmed by robots.

Honestly, Aero and Alexander's stitching is pretty good, but it's not up to par with the Japanese brands (RMC, Freewheelers, Rainbow Country, and The Flat Head). Heck, at this point I can even tell the difference in pictures. One thing I have noticed is the stitches per inches. The Japanese (as well as Himel) have a far higher stitch count per inch than the Scottish brands, who I have noticed in particular have a very low stitch count. Again, does this really matter? Maybe not, but you asked and stuff like this matters to me

Another difference is just the leather itself. We can argue over which leather is actually the best in the world until all animals are extinct, but it's commonly accepted that Shinki horsehide is the most expensive and arguably the most desirable leather in the world for jackets. Not everyone likes it, but it does actually cost the most (as Himel's pricing of it vs. his Italian HH proves) and it is not available to everyone. I love Horween leather. Both of my engineer boots are made out of it and it is great stuff, but Horween is very liberal about letting pretty much anyone use their product. This is not bad, but on the other hand Shinki is extremely selective about who is allowed to buy and use their leather. As far as I am aware, Himel and Chapman are the only two jacket makers outside of Japan who are allowed to use it (DD gets it through Chapman). Other than them I believe Viberg and Ace Boots (in the Himel collab) were the only shoe/bootmakers allowed to use it to make footwear, though I think Wesco may have had a Japanese model with some Shinki in it if I recall correctly. In my opinion, Shinki is the most incredible leather in the world and I am definitely willing to pay the premium for it. I could describe why I love it so much, but that could take quite a while (though I will if requested).

Finally, the detailing. In this case, even the Japanese brands fall behind Chapman and Himel. The best stitchwork is in Japan, but the best detailing comes from these two. Now, I can't personally speak about Chapman jackets, but I know of many who boast about his jackets having that bit of extra detail that puts his jackets over the top. I have handled a few Himel jackets and can say that he does seem to put in some extra work that even the Japanese do not do. The time he takes to brush the hair on his grizzly jackets just right to have the seems be perfectly flat, the double stitching details on many of the jackets, and the fact that he uses 100% cotton thread and therefore stitches very slowly, leaving the surface looking perfectly pristine. Superfluous knows even more about these sort of details than I even do.

So in summary, these details really don't technically justify the cost increase or wait increase. However, having experienced other jacket makers, I can personally say with confidence that I have no plans on ever owning another Alexander or DD or ever ordering something from BK, Aero, Schott, Vanson, etc. I haven't had experience with any Chapman jackets, but I can personally see clear quality differences between jackets from Himel and RMC vs. most of the rest.

Again, these are my personal opinions and I am sure that I sound quite pretentious and elitist, especially considering how much this forum in particular favors brands like Aero. However, coming from a guy who has owned other brands, I must say I only feel satisfied now that I actually own what I believe is the absolute best, no matter what the cost (well, the Himel is on order, but I'm still excited ) Some people may disagree with me, but one problem I have with this forum is that a lot of times there is this weird contradiction going on where people think that brands like Himel, Freewheelers, and RMC are too expensive when they are already paying way more than what is practical for brands like Aero. We're already spending too much on this stuff, why not buy what is actually the best? I'm sorry, but in my personal experience there are very tangible differences between the brands of leather jackets I have owned and handled personally and while that does not justify the price difference for everyone, I do have a problem with people saying that there isn't really a difference when there actually is.

It's sort of like when people say that Gustin or something similar is as good as Iron Heart or The Flat Head/Real Japan Blues when clearly this is untrue and people are only trying to justify their saving of money. I know this because I used to do this with my Diamond Dave jacket. I said it was basically as good as the rest even when I knew it wasn't because I was trying to justify my purchase. However, eventually I knew I was in denial and sold it to buy my RMC.

This isn't to say that everyone who owns Aero/AL/BK jackets is in denial or that the jackets aren't amazing and they are definitely closer to Himel and RMC than Gustin is to Iron Heart and The Flat Head/RJB, but I do see posts on here that try to say that Aero and other makers are as good as Himel, Chapman, and RMC when this honestly is not the case.

Again, Superfluous could say all of this much better than me as he has possibly the widest range of jacket ownership experience on here.

 

[Monitor]

Couple of times I have nearly put in an order for one of John's jackets but the wait time has put me off. Question I asked myself, are Goodwear jackets really that much better than say Aero, BK, ELC, enough to justify the wait? I struggle to imagine they are.

After all these years, question I have more and more often been asking myself is, are any of the brands you have mentioned really that much better than some $60 cheapo from the 70's?

Goodwear - like Himel, ELC, etc. - is a brand of prestige. Nothing wrong with that. Just that, in any quality test, a $600 Vanson would probably top any Chapman or Himel, while even looking the part. So, what exactly are you paying that $1000 extra for? You're paying a $1000 extra to pay a $1000 extra.

Take Shinki, for example - why do people so often brand it the best leather in the world? Because it does a very good job at emulating the look and feel of leathers those nice old, shopping mall priced jackets were made from. That's the whole point of Shinki.

In the end, with a jacket from any brand mentioned ITT, what we're doing is paying three times the price for a jacket that's a copy of a $50 jacket, just to look like someone who had very little money to begin with.

We're buying expensive jackets because knowing that we're wearing expensive jackets makes us feel good about ourselves. If we were women, we'd be buying Loubotins.

Oh man... Check out these engineer boots and jackets, not to mention jeans... these guys must be wearing at least $5000 worth of clothes! Each!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

After all these years, question I have more and more often been asking myself is, are any of the brands you have mentioned really that much better than some $60 cheapo from the 70's?

Goodwear - like Himel, ELC, etc. - is a brand of prestige. Nothing wrong with that. Just that, in any quality test, a $600 Vanson would probably top any Chapman or Himel, while even looking the part. So, what exactly are you paying that $1000 extra for? You're paying a $1000 extra to pay a $1000 extra.

Take Shinki, for example - why do people so often brand it the best leather in the world? Because it does a very good job at emulating the look and feel of leathers those nice old, shopping mall priced jackets were made from. That's the whole point of Shinki.

In the end, with a jacket from any brand mentioned ITT, what we're doing is paying three times the price for a jacket that's a copy of a $50 jacket, just to look like someone who had very little money to begin with.

We're buying expensive jackets because knowing that we're wearing expensive jackets makes us feel good about ourselves. If we were women, we'd be buying Loubotins.

I agree with almost all of this except for the reason why we pay the extra $1,000. There are details and options that are actual reasons why these jackets cost more, but I agree it isn't actually logical.

Of course it isn't logical. If it was, none of us would be wearing leather in the first place. We'd all be wearing waterproof down jackets and hoodies or something.

 

[Technonut]

IMO, the extra cost goes to the research, skill, and labor, of a single man tailoring your requested garment. Not to a random machine-operator who hasn't personally spoken to you about your body style, wants, and needs. JC creates painstakingly accurate reproductions of WW2-era flight jackets, and other popular vintage civilian jackets.

JC has personally handled and studied the period examples of these jackets, sources authentic materials (including NOS hardware), and has the artistic vision, talent, and skill to bring them to life again. A true 'one man show'. The lengthy wait times involved, and folks willing to abide the wait, speaks volumes in it's self.

 

[navetsea]

I'm not really sold to the idea of a specially treated expensive leather that would appear aged at accelerated pace, especially with contrasting color shown underneath the top color... especially since many guys are against mixing black and brown together, I'm surprised so many here like a black jacket that would change into brown at accelerated pace, I wonder with continuous wear and affected by the elements how those teacore shinki would look in 20yrs, I like just normal black on black that would slowly turn into grey much much more. just my own opinion.