Good Wear Hercules

[dudewuttheheck]

I just want to point out that I somehow managed not to participate in this type of debate for once

 

[red devil]

I just want to point out that I somehow managed not to participate in this type of debate for once

There were quite a few debates ongoing, which one did you specifically avoid?

 

[Seb Lucas]

I just want to point out that I somehow managed not to participate in this type of debate for once

It's Boyo's fault - he started this. Him and his cool jacket. The nerve.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

There were quite a few debates ongoing, which one did you specifically avoid?

The one involving quality/weight and stitching. I am a stitching nerd and I am staying out of this.

 

[Carlos840]

All true - And yet, a $150 jacket, one made in thicker leather, leaves nothing to be desired functionality-wise, worn either as a bike jacket or worn casually, every part of it performing perfectly (and fitting even better) while a $1500 jacket fails on some of the most critical features like the wide sleeve openings or being self destroyed by its own sleeve zippers.

Same with a Schott Perfecto which I still say is a better Perfecto than the one LW makes.

For me, bad stitching < flaws in functionality. Going about it this way, I could say I don't see the Lost Worlds on the same level as Natal since the Speed Demon, being as flawed as it is, is objectively an inferior motorcycle jacket.

So why should one aspect by which a jacket should be judged be valued more than the other (which, IMO, is more important). I sold my Aero motorcycle jacket because it wasn't very wearable on a bike at all. I kept the Natal because it is.

Ultimately, how can a sign of quality be something that has no effect on the actual quality of a leather garment, which - again - I personally translate to longevity, durability & the way it fits.

Again, Lost Worlds jacket is a perfectly stitched jacket that due to an oversight is cutting itself to shreds. How is that quality, then?

But yeah, we're just spinning around now and could go on forever. . .

@Monitor your Natal is cowhide isn't it? Why are you even comparing it to a horsehide jacket?

I have had a thought about all that.
On one hand i agree with you, functionality should be most important...
On the other hand, i can't help but think that if all we cared about was functionality, very few of us would still be here...
Really the only time i "need" leather is on the bike, and if all i use to gauge quality is functionality then my £49 Richa is the best quality leather jacket i own:

As a riding jacket I would be ready to bet that this jacket is 10 times more functional than your Natal posted above!
On the bike it is 100% my "best" leather jacket.

If you stop seeing jackets as a purely functional piece of clothing and start focusing on the art/craftsmanship that goes into them, then i think that stitching/attention to detail is the least subjective way to "rank" them.
IMO it is impossible to rank quality leathers, as thickness, grain, hand, etc are all extremely subjective.
Although i agree that some patterns are better than others, and some makers are better at fitting customers in their patterns, i think the differences in bodies and the difference in what each of us perceives as a good fit makes objectivity very hard.


Let me compare it to music, to me the leather is the instrument, the machinist the musician, the pattern is the score/song, the quality of the stitching is the musical performance/profeciency.

To me the most important thing when i listen to music isn't that the band is using fancy instruments, that the musicians are famous, or that the songs are the greatest, it is the musical performance, the fact that the "right" notes are being played at the right time and creating something bigger than themselves together!
(you can probably tell i am not a fan of free jazz!)

Poor stitching to me is the equivalent of a Guitar Wolf gig, i just can't deal with it!

 

[ProteinNerd]

You might well be approaching the finish line though.

LOL I'm not exactly holding my breath !!

 

[Seb Lucas]

I have had a thought about all that.
On one hand i agree with you, functionality should be most important...
On the other hand, i can't help but think that if all we cared about was functionality, very few of us would still be here...
Really the only time i "need" leather is on the bike, and if all i use to gauge quality is functionality then my £49 Richa is the best quality leather jacket i own:

As a riding jacket I would be ready to bet that this jacket is 10 times more functional than your Natal posted above!
On the bike it is 100% my "best" leather jacket.

If you stop seeing jackets as a purely functional piece of clothing and start focusing on the art/craftsmanship that goes into them, then i think that stitching/attention to detail is the least subjective way to "rank" them.
IMO it is impossible to rank quality leathers, as thickness, grain, hand, etc are all extremely subjective.
Although i agree that some patterns are better than others, and some makers are better at fitting customers in their patterns, i think the differences in bodies and the difference in what each of us perceives as a good fit makes objectivity very hard.


Let me compare it to music, to me the leather is the instrument, the machinist the musician, the pattern is the score/song, the quality of the stitching is the musical performance/profeciency.

To me the most important thing when i listen to music isn't that the band is using fancy instruments, that the musicians are famous, or that the songs are the greatest, it is the musical performance, the fact that the "right" notes are being played at the right time and creating something bigger than themselves together!
(you can probably tell i am not a fan of free jazz!)

Poor stitching to me is the equivalent of a Guitar Wolf gig, i just can't deal with it!

On this I take the opposite view, mainly. Since you cited music: Jackets that are over engineered and overly perfect are like over produced, too technically perfect blues music, with no flex and character. Bland. I assume we are all aware of perfectly executed blues recordings that completely fail to connect and demonstrate humanity and soul. Too clean. Some overly perfect products feel like that to me.

No one is actually saying the other makers have poor stitching or poor pattern making, they are just slightly less perfect (perhaps) and this gives them a more authentic feel to my eyes. A leather jacket is a hand made item. At the more extreme end is my favorite jacket the Brooks 511 cafe racer. It often has mediocre stitching and an insubstantial synthetic lining material, a basic hide, but it comes together like the John Lee Hooker of jackets. It's the real deal. That's my poetic bullshit for the day done.

 

[ton312]

A leather jacket is a hand made item. At the more extreme end is my favorite jacket the Brooks 511 cafe racer. It often has mediocre stitching and an insubstantial synthetic lining material, a basic hide, but it comes together like the John Lee Hooker of jackets. It's the real deal. That's my poetic bullshit for the day done.

This perfectly captures my sentiment with my Taylor’s CPD. A far, far cry from the quality level of the Aero, Lw’s etc I’ve owned in the past but somehow eclipsing them all. It feels far more genuine. The quality is not poor by any means but it’s also not fetishized. There is something about that I find very appealing. I would’ve laughed in the face of anyone who said I’d feel this way even two months ago. In fact if someone told me my favorite jacket would have patch pockets...I might have challenged them to a duel. LOL.

 

[Blackadder]

If there are people who festishise precision, there are people who romanticise imperfection (Connor Sewing Factory jeans spring into my mind). IMHO, there is nothing wrong with admiring the precision in a piece of work. Although I would not have a piece of clothing in mind when I am thinking precision. A watch, a gun, a blade or a German automobile perhaps.

It seems wholly argumentative but if there is a perfectly stitched Brooks or Taylor, would that make you unhappy that you would rather pick one with minor defects? A flawless Brooks or Taylor may cost to much to bear but would that make you dislike the Brooks or Taylor?

I was dumbstruck when the local White's boots dealer told me I shouldn't go over my first and only custom White's boots with a fine-tooth comb and that the mismatched heels (one bigger than the other) are acceptable because they are man made. I was dumbstruck because the pair of White's cost as much as my Church's boots which are of course not machine made and yet the local Church's dealer has never asked me to overlook any defects on account that they are man made.

 

[ton312]

If there are people who festishise precision, there are people who romanticise imperfection (Connor Sewing Factory jeans spring into my mind). IMHO, there is nothing wrong with admiring the precision in a piece of work. Although I would not have a piece of clothing in mind when I am thinking precision. A watch, a gun, a blade or a German automobile perhaps.

It seems wholly argumentative but if there is a perfectly stitched Brooks or Taylor, would that make you unhappy that you would rather pick one with minor defects? A flawless Brooks or Taylor may cost to much to bear but would that make you dislike the Brooks or Taylor?

I was dumbstruck when the local White's boots dealer told me I shouldn't go over my first and only custom White's boots with a fine-tooth comb and that the mismatched heels (one bigger than the other) are acceptable because they are man made. I was dumbstruck because the pair of White's cost as much as my Church's boots which are of course not machine made and yet the local Church's dealer has never asked me to overlook any defects on account that they are man made.

I wouldn’t be more or less happy. What attracts me to the Taylor’s isn’t the stitching (good or bad) but the feeling I get wearing it. As sorry as it may seem I am no more likely to notice perfect stitching than I am flawed stitching. Leather jackets haven’t ever been something I’ve poured over the minute details all that closely on. Design, hide, fit yes. Stand back 6’ from mirror. That’s all I need to know.
Now with that said, if there’s a horrible and obvious flaw on beauty queen... I’ll be bringing that up straight away with the maker.

 

[Sloan1874]

That is the dilemma. Many of the materials today far exceed those used on vintage originals. Alpaca and wool lining is pretty much obsolete. The modern synthetic materials are warmer, lighter and less itchy. A new Alpha civilian MA-1 has far thinner synthetic lining than the original military spec wool pile MA-1 and yet it is at least as warm as the original. Yet some people finds the new one too flimsy and does not believe it can keep them warm.

I owned a Real McCoy nylon, it's lining was wool and it felt remarkably robust, far heavier than the Alphas I owned. Didn't notice a variation in warmth but it felt as if it could take a bit more punishment.

 

[Psant25]

If there are people who festishise precision, there are people who romanticise imperfection (Connor Sewing Factory jeans spring into my mind). IMHO, there is nothing wrong with admiring the precision in a piece of work. Although I would not have a piece of clothing in mind when I am thinking precision. A watch, a gun, a blade or a German automobile perhaps.

It seems wholly argumentative but if there is a perfectly stitched Brooks or Taylor, would that make you unhappy that you would rather pick one with minor defects? A flawless Brooks or Taylor may cost to much to bear but would that make you dislike the Brooks or Taylor?

I was dumbstruck when the local White's boots dealer told me I shouldn't go over my first and only custom White's boots with a fine-tooth comb and that the mismatched heels (one bigger than the other) are acceptable because they are man made. I was dumbstruck because the pair of White's cost as much as my Church's boots which are of course not machine made and yet the local Church's dealer has never asked me to overlook any defects on account that they are man made.

I am a stickler for symmetry and almost every whites or wesco boots ive owned were a little off at the heel when you compare side to side. So I Went back to red wing and also picked up a pair of rubber soled blundstones. Love em

 

[handymike]

My one and only custom jacket is by GW. Still my favorite.

 

[jonesy86]

My one and only custom jacket is by GW. Still my favorite.

None of my GWs are custom, but I like them.

 

[J Leather Investigater]

All true - And yet, a $150 jacket, one made in thicker leather, leaves nothing to be desired functionality-wise, worn either as a bike jacket or worn casually, every part of it performing perfectly (and fitting even better) while a $1500 jacket fails on some of the most critical features like the wide sleeve openings or being self destroyed by its own sleeve zippers.

Same with a Schott Perfecto which I still say is a better Perfecto than the one LW makes.

For me, bad stitching < flaws in functionality. Going about it this way, I could say I don't see the Lost Worlds on the same level as Natal since the Speed Demon, being as flawed as it is, is objectively an inferior motorcycle jacket.

So why should one aspect by which a jacket should be judged be valued more than the other (which, IMO, is more important). I sold my Aero motorcycle jacket because it wasn't very wearable on a bike at all. I kept the Natal because it is.

Ultimately, how can a sign of quality be something that has no effect on the actual quality of a leather garment, which - again - I personally translate to longevity, durability & the way it fits.

Again, Lost Worlds jacket is a perfectly stitched jacket that due to an oversight is cutting itself to shreds. How is that quality, then?

But yeah, we're just spinning around now and could go on forever. . .

@Monitor your Natal is cowhide isn't it? Why are you even comparing it to a horsehide jacket?

Because it makes no difference, the two hides being literally exactly the same.[/QUOTE]Monitor im not sure if your just venting about the flaws of your jacket or you have become so unhappy you want to move it on? If the latter is so, please pm me to discuss measurements / PayPal. Thx.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Monitor]

Monitor im not sure if your just venting about the flaws of your jacket or you have become so unhappy you want to move it on? If the latter is so, please pm me to discuss measurements / PayPal. Thx.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Lol, no, I'm not. I'm actually very happy with it but I'm just saying what I believe. I don't think it's the best jacket ever in the world - but the one I got does work for me remarkably well.

 

[J Leather Investigater]

Monitor im not sure if your just venting about the flaws of your jacket or you have become so unhappy you want to move it on? If the latter is so, please pm me to discuss measurements / PayPal. Thx.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Lol, no, I'm not. I'm actually very happy with it but I'm just saying what I believe. I don't think it's the best jacket ever in the world - but the one I got does work for me remarkably well.[/QUOTE]Sounds good buddy, i hope you enjoy it for many years!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Monitor]

Sounds good buddy, i hope you enjoy it for many years!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

If I can share a secret with you; I'm actually getting another one, but don't tell anyone.

 

[Carlos840]

If I can share a secret with you; I'm actually getting another one, but don't tell anyone.

Are you starting a collection of unfonctional jackets? Seems weird...

(but seriously, i really hope No2 is even more glorious than No1!)

 

[Monitor]

Are you starting a collection of unfonctional jackets? Seems weird...

(but seriously, i really hope No2 is even more glorious than No1!)

I need more proof to back up my claim on how much they suck!