Good Wear Hercules

[Seb Lucas]

To fetishise is simply to have an excessive or near irrational commitment to something. I am frequently guilty of this and just as frequently puzzled by what turns others on.

 

[Mich486]

What is that you fetishise in a leather jacket Seb? After the jacket fits if it isn’t quality what could it be?

In your post that generated this discussion you seem to dismiss people chasing quality in objects as being vane. What higher moral standards you adhere to instead in your search? Enlighten me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Seb Lucas]

What is that you fetishise in a leather jacket Seb? After the jacket fits if it isn’t quality what could it be?

In your post that generated this discussion you seem to dismiss people chasing quality in objects as being vane. What higher moral standards you adhere to instead in your search? Enlighten me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you practicing some trolling, 486?

I note with interest your somewhat slippery use of the terms "moral standards" "dismiss people" and "vane". Not sure why you've confected this insinuating line of reasoning, but well done, Brother. Don't think I've ever associated a leather jacket with any notions of moral philosophy, but you may know something I don't.

How about this? There are thousands of posts for you to read here about why people like leather jackets. Quality is just one of many elements that come up, as you must know already. For me jackets have qualities - plural - and, as you may have already read here by me and many others, it is not always about chasing the ultimate standard of production. But if fit and quality are all that matter to you, it sounds to me like your jacket choices must be simple.

 

[Mich486]

You write a very judgemental and patronising post about people who think quality is pivotal in this hobby and then if people challenge you about it they are trolling?! I might have a different opinion on who is the troll here.

I’m still missing what instead is relevant for you in a vintage/repro leather jacket other than fit and quality of materials and construction.

I’m not saying you can’t have different standards but dismissing quality as being somewhat an unreasonable thing to chase for it’s very weird.

Between 2 jackets of a style you like would you go for the less well put together of the two everything else being equal?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Seb Lucas]

You write a very judgemental and patronising post about people who think quality is pivotal in this hobby and then if people challenge you about it they are trolling?! I might have a different opinion on who is the troll here.

I’m still missing what instead is relevant for you in a vintage/repro leather jacket other than fit and quality of materials and construction.

I’m not saying you can’t have different standards but dismissing quality as being somewhat an unreasonable thing to chase for it’s very weird.

Between 2 jackets of a style you like would you go for the less well put together of the two everything else being equal?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think I have written anything anywhere near as patronising and judgemental as your snarky "enlighten me" post above.

My views are unremarkable. I have passion for a handful of vintage jacket patterns, I like jackets to be a certain length and lighter leather weight and I like character (this you know when you see it and it is taste dependent) and generally I like my hand made objects not too look too perfect. Leather jackets are about wear and fades, creases, cracks and age. That's all. In fact ton and I have previously spoken about (in theory) having a vintage Brooks copied and properly re-engineered by an artisan jacket maker. We both came to the conclusion that what makes the Brooks cafe racers great are the imperfections. A copy would probably lose the magic or character they have. That's my fetish - the veneration of character.

And finally, maybe pay closer attention - I have never said that quality doesn't matter. I have never "dismissed" quality. I have simply said that it need not be fetishised - made the defining, almost obsessive priority. I think once you get to Aero quality, any perceived improvement beyond this is more a difference in aesthetics rather than quality. This is a simple point and not too challenging. Fine if others disagree as they will. I would have thought some lively discussion and differences of opinion about jackets is the point of this forum.

Any other other gripes, send me a PM so we don't bore the good folks here. Finally, sorry Boyo.

 

[TheOldFashioned]

While a spirited, respectful debate is welcome I suspect a moderator may soon step in and squash this thread. With all due respect, I think @Boyo deserves for this thread to steer a bit back towards the original intent, which is celebrating a great jacket several years in the making:

Perhaps a new thread can be created (or an old one resurfaced, I haven't checked) to debate the finer points and details about jacket qualities and characteristics and their personal value for individuals. Win-win for everyone.

 

[Mich486]

No need for any moderator to step in as far as I’m concerned. Just a more lively than usual debate which I don’t think is casting any shadow on the beautiful jacket Boyo got. We are all grown up men I think.

I agree and accept we all have different standards but patronising people who think that quality doesn’t stop at the Aero level (of which I happily own products) is very annoying, myopic and irritating as far as I’m concerned.

If only Seb would have gotten through his personal preferences like in the central part of his last post I would just probably liked his post.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jonbuilder]

@ton & seb Lucas
I am impressed with your insights into our obsession/addictive/compulsive behavior and your abilities to express your views, way beyond my creative writing skills, well done. One more justification for me to keep compulsively reading jacket posts, I never know when something new and exciting will develop.
@Boyo thank you for posting your GW jacket and planting the seed for the discussion

 

[red devil]

Some conversations get lively, nothing wrong with that

We do not need any moderator to step in, this is a great thread!

This point by @ton312 is very interesting:

I fully admit I’m not a collector of things, I’m an explorer, just passing through. I have never met a jacket I won’t sell/replace and I highly doubt I ever will.

This pretty much explains the way you have been going on with your jacket, and I can relate to the joy of the search. Nothing is more fun than exploring styles, deciding on what to get next, then start speccing it.

The only part where I would diverge from you is in reselling. After having spent time thinking through a jacket, I find it hard to part with it. When I look at my jackets, I see the evolution of my journey through this hobby

 

[ton312]

Some conversations get lively, nothing wrong with that

We do not need any moderator to step in, this is a great thread!

This point by @ton312 is very interesting:



This pretty much explains the way you have been going on with your jacket, and I can relate to the joy of the search. Nothing is more fun than exploring styles, deciding on what to get next, then start speccing it.

The only part where I would diverge from you is in reselling. After having spent time thinking through a jacket, I find it hard to part with it. When I look at my jackets, I see the evolution of my journey through this hobby

I think your path is more linear RD. Mine is more circular.

 

[handymike]

I think your path is more linear RD. Mine is more circular.

Maybe even a spiral.

 

[Jrolfe]

Boyo, that outfit is awesome. Head to toe looking dapper. The jacket is obviously the star of the show, but where did you get that hat?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Corky Corcovado]

Was Mr.Clinton aroused when you arrived in a leather jacket Miss Lewinksi?
...yes, he particularly admired the seamwork and hide quality...*sobs*

 

[Monitor]

This is a good, interesting discussion and I don't think a line has been crossed. Not even close.

If I may...

I own one LW, a Buco Rider, and wouldn't mind owning more 1 or 2 other LW designs if I could afford them.

I've owned maybe a half dozen Natel/Natal jackets. One cross-zip perfecto-style jacket, and maybe 5 cafe racer types.

I love both makers, and I see them very differently.

LW specializes in reproductions of old styles from roughly the 1930s-1950s. They go all out with materials and craftsmanship, and make something that is deliberately overbuilt, and are very proud of it.

Natal/Natel, we know really very little about. All the research I've done into them suggests that they were a small New England outfit. As far as I can tell, they made biker jackets, period. They used a pattern also used by Walter Dyer, an apparently larger and more successful business, but in my opinion Natal did it just a hair better, with thicker, tougher leather. They were built to be functional and durable, and they are all that, but I wouldn't say that they were obsessive about craft. They used standard, affordable materials for linings and hardware, and went above and beyond with leather.

You can often find a Natal jacket for sale on eBay for under $300, and often around $100. For what they are, I feel that they are massively undervalued. Built today, a Natal jacket would easily be a $500+ item, and probably more like $800. I have no idea what they cost when new, or really when they were in business, but I could guess that if they were mostly made in the 80's and 90's, which is only a guess, but I think it's a reasonably accurate one, then they probably sold new for around $200-250.

We know that LW sell for $1200-2000+ new. And if you're looking for a style that LW offers, nothing else will do. If you're looking for a leather jacket that's tough and heavy, a Natal will do very well, at about 1/10th the price.

From a cost to value standpoint, I think Natal enjoys a better ratio, new or used, for sure. But if you want specifically what LW offers in terms of style and spare-no-expense quality, they're in another league than Natal, and not really competing with each other (if we imagine Natal as a still-in-business business for sake of argument). LW isn't 10x the jacket for 10x the price, but they're several times what Natal is in certain aspects that Natal wasn't even trying for, so you kindof have to compare the two with that kind of understanding. If you mainly or only care about the aspects that Natal was after, then they're clearly a better value, even if inferior to LW with regard to certain details like stitching, lining materials, and hardware.

I just wanna say how excellent this post is, Guppy. Agreed 100% with everything you've said and that sort of was my point.

 

[Boyo]

Boyo, that outfit is awesome. Head to toe looking dapper. The jacket is obviously the star of the show, but where did you get that hat?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks, @Jrolfe its a Freewheelers Dylan.. definitely a high recommendation from me if this the type of hat you’re after.

I’m digging the current conversation. Keep it up.. @Carlos840 .. the info on gambling addiction is a bit eyeopening I hit 4 of the diagnostic criteria for Jackets.. 2020 will be a rehab year for me..

 

[Superfluous]

Seb, if I previously came on too strong, I apologize. That said, allow me to explain why your “fetish” statement was plainly susceptible to an unkind interpretation.

some people fetishize quality

To fetishise is simply to have an excessive or near irrational commitment to something.

Juxtaposing your two quotes, you are plainly stating that certain unnamed people “have an excessive or near irrational commitment to” quality. First, the words “excessive” and “irrational" are the antithesis of a compliment and, at the very least, convey an unflattering connotation. In my experience, when you label someone as “irrational” or “excessive,” it is generally a criticism, as compared to the positive attribute of rationality. You may not have intended such an implication, but I hope you recognize that others can rationally interpret your words as a slight.

Second, while such an irrational commitment to quality undoubtedly exists somewhere, I personally cannot recall such a display here with respect to quality. Several members have stated the obvious and undisputed fact that certain jackets are made to a higher quality than others. I presume you do not disagree with the simple proposition that there is a variance in quality among the jackets discussed here. Several members have also stated what characteristics they perceive as illustrative of quality, and have likewise stated that they favor said characteristics and the resulting quality. On the other hand, I do not recall any members displaying an irrational commitment to quality or the characteristics that define quality for them. To the contrary, those members who have written about quality have been measured and rational in their description of the factors that define quality for them, and have been equally rational in their stated preference for those characteristics. IMHO, these members have not displayed an “irrational or “excessive” interest in quality that would warrant the fetish label.

You espouse a different approach, as is your prerogative. I enjoy reading about your approach . . . until you label an alternative approach a “festish” involving “irrational” and “excessive” pursuits, in contrast to your rational approach. IMHO, you should avoid such potentially disrespectful labels for approaches that vary from your own.

Certain posters in this thread have attempted to explain your statement by observing that this community fetishizes outerwear in general. I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment and embrace the unflattering connotation. The members here discuss irrational and excessive interests in jackets, generally, on a daily basis – me included. However, this observation is a non-sequitur in relationship to your prior statement. You did not state that certain people fetishize jackets in general. Rather, you stated that certain people fetishize quality. That is an entirely different statement. The fact that many/most here fetishize jackets in general does not mean that anyone here fetishizes quality in particular. As explained above, I personally cannot recall any instances of members displaying an irrational interest in quality, as distinct from a rational discussion of palpable differences in manufacturing techniques and a preference for one over the other.

Perhaps this is all an issue of semantics and unintended implications, coupled with my admitted hypersensitivity. Again, I apologize if I misinterpreted your post. You are a spectacularly bright guy and I hope you can see how others might have legitimately misunderstood your words as a slight.

Happy New Year everyone. Hopefully this will be the first of many lively and respectful discussions as the year progresses.

 

[jonesy86]

No need for any moderator to step in as far as I’m concerned. Just a more lively than usual debate which I don’t think is casting any shadow on the beautiful jacket Boyo got. We are all grown up men I think.

I agree and accept we all have different standards but patronising people who think that quality doesn’t stop at the Aero level (of which I happily own products) is very annoying, myopic and irritating as far as I’m concerned.

If only Seb would have gotten through his personal preferences like in the central part of his last post I would just probably liked his post.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like GW leather jackets.

 

[jonesy86]

No need for any moderator to step in as far as I’m concerned. Just a more lively than usual debate which I don’t think is casting any shadow on the beautiful jacket Boyo got. We are all grown up men I think.

I agree and accept we all have different standards but patronising people who think that quality doesn’t stop at the Aero level (of which I happily own products) is very annoying, myopic and irritating as far as I’m concerned.

If only Seb would have gotten through his personal preferences like in the central part of his last post I would just probably liked his post.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like GW leather jackets.

 

[jonesy86]

Heads up. There is a GW Herc. 44 on The Bay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jonbuilder]

I like GW leather jackets.

so do I, perhaps the excitement over qualities of the example jacket the OP posted, has stimulated the discussions beyond the singular stellar jacket presented