Goatskin vs Horsehide

[Sloan1874]

That would appear to be an Aero cossack, but it's not one I recognise.
But you're very kind, Fanch! I guess that guy's jacket was made before Ken returned. I certainly wouldn't have stuck a pocket on to a jacket like that - it jars. If you look at all Aero's button jackets, none of them have zip breast pockets, and there's an obvious aesthetic reason for that, the shiny brass of the zip clashes.

 

[Deleted member 16736]

I used to be a horsehide fanatic, but good veg-tanned goat with an aniline finish will develop plenty of character, and frankly, looks more authentic out of the box than most horsehide I see. And it's true that goat holds onto the finish better, which creates an even appearance. I remember the first time I watched in horror as a big chunk of finish came off my $1000 horsehide jacket.

 

[Heiko]

How does finish come off? I am very unfamiliar with horsehide so this is all new to me.

That deep copper colour is what I've become obsessed with...that and the double breasted cossack model.

I looked over the forums and have seen images from no one but a user called Graemsy--anyone else have the cossack?

 

[Sloan1874]

It really is just a use/collision/friction thing. As you wear it, the grain comes through, changing the colour. The rest is just use and scuffing, as it knocks off the micron-thin coating on top of the hide, it reveals the lighter copper tones underneath. Basically, it becomes a record of your day-to-day life.

 

[ForestForTheTrees]

You might find a few additional answers to some of your questions here, straight from the source:

Nick Horween on Chromexcel leather

 

[ForestForTheTrees]

I received a new jacket just last week that is constructed of Horween's Chromexcel front quarter horsehide. I also received the leather that was left over from the build.

In the first picture, you can see a large piece of hide that was leftover from the build along with the jacket:

Amongst the hide pieces left over were a couple of smaller swatches. I took one of them and worked it over a bit, crumpling it up, and generally abusing it. The other I left alone. You can easily see how the grain comes out in the swatch that was worked over a bit and how it reflects the same light differently:

Here's a closer look:

And here is how my jacket looks after owning it for one week. This is where the shoulder area where the sleeve meets the body, an area that sees a lot of movement:

It's hard to believe that the jacket started with hides that originally looked like the large, uniform piece seen in the first photo.

One of the things that makes the leather look so rich is that it is aniline dyed which is transparent and allows you to better see all of the fine details and inconsistencies throughout the leather as opposed to a finish that is more opaque in nature, covering up such characteristics and looking much more uniform.

Horweens Chromexcel steerhide exhibits the same color behaviors as well as it has undergone the same tanning process.

 

[mattp]

Interestingly the steer Chronexcel brown jacket I had was much more brown than its FQHH replacement, which has much more prominent red/copper undertones. I much prefer the new one, thankfully!
I suspect this has more to do with the batch rather than the hide, as I would expect the horse and steer to behave/react similarly to the Chromexcel due process?

 

[ForestForTheTrees]

Interestingly the steer Chronexcel brown jacket I had was much more brown than its FQHH replacement, which has much more prominent red/copper undertones. I much prefer the new one, thankfully!
I suspect this has more to do with the batch rather than the hide, as I would expect the horse and steer to behave/react similarly to the Chromexcel due process?

I would agree. I ordered the hides directly from the Horween Tannery. I received swatches early on in the process and the appearance of the Brown CXL horse at that time did not include as much of the dark rust/copper colors as the hides I finally ended up with. Mind that the original swatch still looked good to my eye, just different.

I also own a few pair of boots make with brown CXL steerhide, one pair is much more red/copper colored than the other which is more pure brown.

 

[Heiko]

Hi again, to Hoosierdaddy, Fanch and JanSolo:

Below is what I am talking about when I mean weathered horsehide...The original poster shows a lovely jacket and then shows it after some months--it looks rather bad in my eyes. Is this typical HH patina?

Early on:

After some wear:

So is this atypical patina or what is considered desirable?

 

[Jeff M]

Leather is quite variable.
If you contact a jacket maker...or leather supplier...and ask them for samples of what they have on hand, it may be a fair bit different from what you would have received from their last batch...or their next.
That's why it's a good idea to ask a jacket maker, like Aero, GW, or similar, to send you samples of what they have on hand.
Not only that, leather can vary depending on where the maker cut it from the hide. Quite markedly, actually, both in terms of color and texture.

What is "desirable"....thats entirely subjective. Different people prefer different colors, different textures, weights, stiffness, thickness, tanning processes.
The only way you will fine out what you like is to actually get your hands on the leather and see if it appeals to you.
Re; the "after some wear" photos....that looks like minimal...if any... "aging" compared to what the horse hide used on my Aero's looks like after I break it in with some time worn in the rain.
(Actually, those first few photos look just like my Cordovan HH Aero "Cheyenne" looked like when I first took it out of the box. )
The aging process never ends. The more you wear it, the more it wears, the more it creases/wrinkles/changes shades in different areas/scratches/softens up.
Some leathers do this rapidly....too rapidly for some.
Others never seem to wear, or soften up.

If you live in the area of a jacket manufacturer you are thinking of having make you a jacket, drop in and ask to see their leathers. You can choose the actual hide they use to make your jacket.
If you don't live close by, ask them to send you samples of the leathers the currently have.
I've done that each time I've ordered a custom made jacket...even with those manufacturers with whom I've dealt before. The leathers they currently have may be different from what they had previously...even if supposedly the "same".

 

[Heiko]

The pre-worn photos look a whole lot nice than the aged horse hide.

I understand the value of getting samples, but my issue is not so much with the new stuff--all I care for is a coppery colour. The issue is with the crackling creases after the thing gets broken in.

 

[Jeff M]

The pre-worn photos look a whole lot nice than the aged horse hide.

I understand the value of getting samples, but my issue is not so much with the new stuff--all I care for is a coppery colour. The issue is with the crackling creases after the thing gets broken in.

Goatskin tends not to develope that.
HH and steer tend to. To varying unpredictable degrees. .
Then there is the different feel of the hides when worn.
Considering all these things....
I like goatskin on naval military jackets (M422's and G1's).
Capeskin on A1's.
Steer or HH on everything else.

 

[les_garten]

Here's about the most Patina Goat gets.

The Ed Church was early 1940's era

These were my Jackets:

http://www.turbonet.biz/Ebay/Jackets/Church/M-422a_Church_46.htm

http://www.turbonet.biz/Ebay/Jackets/LWFoster/

http://www.turbonet.biz/Ebay/Jackets/Ralph/

 

[Jeff M]

Here is a photo of 3 M422 design jackets.
New Bill Kelso W&G on the left, Goodwear Monarch in the middle, and 1940's ET Church on the right;

The hide of the Church, even over 65 + years old, looks barely worn. Not much patina with goatskin.
"Wear", yes. "Patina", not really.

 

[Fletch]

Can I throw in an observation about - of all things - fit?

Those of us in our Difficult Middle Years™ find that many well tailored jackets give a close fit around the midsection. This is actually more tolerable with goatskin than it is with horsehide. Goat just has more give. I'd compare it to wearing a glove vs. wearing an envelope.

 

[les_garten]

Can I throw in an observation about - of all things - fit?

Those of us in our Difficult Middle Years™ find that many well tailored jackets give a close fit around the midsection. This is actually more tolerable with goatskin than it is with horsehide. Goat just has more give. I'd compare it to wearing a glove vs. wearing an envelope.

Give that man a Cigar to go with that Fedora!

 

[Fletch]

I'll take a Fuente Flor Fina if anybody's buying!

 

[Edward]

That would appear to be an Aero cossack, but it's not one I recognise.
But you're very kind, Fanch! I guess that guy's jacket was made before Ken returned. I certainly wouldn't have stuck a pocket on to a jacket like that - it jars. If you look at all Aero's button jackets, none of them have zip breast pockets, and there's an obvious aesthetic reason for that, the shiny brass of the zip clashes.

Agreed, it does look out of place. (I note with interest this evening that in the new "extras" section Aero offer G1-type inside pockets (no sign of any other type), but say they don't really like them, and advise particularly against them in their "Twenties and Thirties" styles. I can see why on the latter - I have them on my Thirties Halfbelt and they are a neat fit. Wouldn't want something in both those and the outer chest pockets (mind you, I don't use the outer breast pockets on mine, they're more of a design feature on my particular jacket. I don't think I'd want to order a full price jacket without any inside pockets, though I suppose that depends on the design. I miss having one for my wallet - standard chest pocket is too small - on my Highwayman... though that said I don't miss it enough to want to have paid another few hundred quid over the price of my Apprentice model for that feature alone! )

Can I throw in an observation about - of all things - fit?

Those of us in our Difficult Middle Years™ find that many well tailored jackets give a close fit around the midsection. This is actually more tolerable with goatskin than it is with horsehide. Goat just has more give. I'd compare it to wearing a glove vs. wearing an envelope.

Good point. It's amazing how big a difference it can make. My 42 HWM allows for layering quite a chunky sweater. The Bootlegger doesn't; with the Thirties Halfbelt I have to be careful with a waistcoat. Definitely the latter would be more forgiving in goat. I'm sure I read/ heard somewhere that surviving jackets from the era are much more commonly goat than horse.

 

[Equality 7-2521]

Is this a thread for goat/horse advice or a thread about slagging my jacket . I based it off the Buzz Rickson Civilian model flight jacket and some input from a member. http://historypreservation.com/hpassociates/images/br_avcoat_mont_blk.jpg. The chest pocket is perfect for my cell phone and I love it. The length problem happened as I was told by Aero that they do not do a front length measurement but only back length, which I stated as 26 inches, the front of the jacket is two inches shorter than that. That's all I will say about this now .

As for goat vs horse hide from my limited experience I can only echo what has already been stated, that goat is much more supple at once and doesn't seem to age. I suppose you must ask yourself if you want to age with your jacket or have one of you stay young .

 

[tonypaj]

Give that man a Cigar to go with that Fedora!

An alternative, send him to the gym...