German & Austrian Hutmachers

[mayserwegener]

INDUSTRY COMPASS. YEAR 1922. VOLUME III, "German Austria, Czechoslovakia. Hungary. Yugoslavia, (SHS State)"

(This is a very good reference that I recently stumbled upon.)

Page 4436: Filz und Wollhüte (Siehe auch Hüte) / Felt and Wool Hats (See also Hats)

Page 4437: Filz und Wollhüte (Siehe auch Hüte) / Felt and Wool Hats (See also Hats)

Page 4527: Hutbänder / Hatbands, Hüte / Hat Factories (Siehe auch Stroh, Filz- und Wollhüte / See Also Straw, Felt and Wool Hats)

Page 4528: Hüte / Hat Factories), Hutfabriksmaschinen / Hat Factory Machines, Hutformen für Hutmacher / Hat Blocks for Hat Makers a) Aus Gusseisen / Made of Cast Iron b) Aus Holz / Made of Wood, Hutformen für Modistinnen (Aus Appret Draht u Steif schleier) / Hat Blocks for Milliners (Made from Appret Wire and Stiff Veil), Hutkoffer / Hat Case, Hutmacher Ofen / Hat Maker Oven,

Page 4529 Hutpackpapier / Hat Packing Paper a) Braun Patenthutpack / Brown Patent Hat Pack b) Zellulose / Cellulose, Hutschachteln (Siehe auch Kartonnagen) / Hat Boxes (See Slso Cardboard Boxes), Hutschmuck / Hat Decoration,

Page 4530: Hutschnüre / Hat Cord, Hutschweißleder / Hat Sweatband Leather, Hutsteife / Stiff Hat, Hutstumpen / Hat Felt Hoods

Page 4851: Strohhüte / Straw Hats

 

[Daniele Tanto]

I have accumulated a fair number of hats ready to be placed in the Lounge

Brand: Huckel

Felt type or finish: Durit

Size 5 1/2 or 58 cm in Europe or 7 1/4 in the US. The size is probably between 57 and 58 considering the age.

State of preservation: fantastic felt, worn sweatband and non-existent lining, lost during the life of the hat.

Age of the hat: it was probably made between the 1920s and 1940s, but Steve (mayserwegener) will be able to date it much more precisely, given his enormous experience and his unique collection of Central European felts.

Considerations: the hat is a magnificent example of Huckel manufacturing in Czechoslovakia. The felt has a gorgeous color and is beautifully preserved. The ribbon is good, but, like the sweatband, needs work to be ready to use.

The lining must be put back in new condition to have a rare hat to find in this color and state of preservation.

The measurements of the Huckel - Durit are: the raw finished brims measure 5.5 cm, the ribbon matching the color of the felt is 4.5 cm high and the open crown is 14.5 cm

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Along with the Huckel Durit came an older brother at least in my considerations on its age

Brand: Huckel

Felt type or finish: Novo - Velour

Size 5 1/2 or 58 cm in Europe or 7 1/4 in the US. The size is probably between 57 and 58 considering the age and condition of the sweatband

State of preservation: fantastic felt, worn sweatband and lining lost over the long journey of the hat over time.

Age of the hat: it was probably made between the 1920s and 1930s. Steve (mayserwegener) certainly helps as he has many more elements to date it, considering his enormous experience and his unique collection of Central European felts. I will never get tired of repeating it

Considerations: the hat is a magnificent example of Huckel manufacturing in Czechoslovakia, after being founded during the Habsburg Empire. The felt has a gorgeous color and is beautifully preserved. The ribbon is better than the previous one, but requires, like the sweatband, the work of a hatter or loungers capable of expertly handling the hat in order to be worn in its magnificence.

The lining must be put back in new condition to have a rare hat to find in this color and state of preservation.

The measurements of the Huckel - Novo are: the raw finished brims measure 6 cm, the ribbon matching the color of the felt is 5 cm high and the open crown is 14.5 cm

 

[mayserwegener]

I have accumulated a fair number of hats ready to be placed in the Lounge

Brand: Huckel

Felt type or finish: Durit

Size 5 1/2 or 58 cm in Europe or 7 1/4 in the US. The size is probably between 57 and 58 considering the age.

State of preservation: fantastic felt, worn sweatband and non-existent lining, lost during the life of the hat.

Age of the hat: it was probably made between the 1920s and 1940s, but Steve (mayserwegener) will be able to date it much more precisely, given his enormous experience and his unique collection of Central European felts.

Considerations: the hat is a magnificent example of Huckel manufacturing in Czechoslovakia. The felt has a gorgeous color and is beautifully preserved. The ribbon is good, but, like the sweatband, needs work to be ready to use.

The lining must be put back in new condition to have a rare hat to find in this color and state of preservation.

The measurements of the Huckel - Durit are: the raw finished brims measure 5.5 cm, the ribbon matching the color of the felt is 4.5 cm high and the open crown is 14.5 cm

Daniele, Super! My guess is late 1920s early to mid 1930s (See below, JHS Soft Felts Post WWI Type 8). The Velour color and finish are fantastic. I don't think I have seen this color (F 870) before. The paper label has J V which is Jota Velour. French market JHS Velours tend to have this type of contradiction (Durit vs Jota Velour).

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmVqNMVw

 

[mayserwegener]

Along with the Huckel Durit came an older brother at least in my considerations on its age
View attachment 580481
Brand: Huckel
View attachment 580482
Felt type or finish: Novo - Velour
View attachment 580483
Size 5 1/2 or 58 cm in Europe or 7 1/4 in the US. The size is probably between 57 and 58 considering the age and condition of the sweatband
View attachment 580485
State of preservation: fantastic felt, worn sweatband and lining lost over the long journey of the hat over time.
View attachment 580486
Age of the hat: it was probably made between the 1920s and 1930s. Steve (mayserwegener) certainly helps as he has many more elements to date it, considering his enormous experience and his unique collection of Central European felts. I will never get tired of repeating it
View attachment 580487
Considerations: the hat is a magnificent example of Huckel manufacturing in Czechoslovakia, after being founded during the Habsburg Empire. The felt has a gorgeous color and is beautifully preserved. The ribbon is better than the previous one, but requires, like the sweatband, the work of a hatter or loungers capable of expertly handling the hat in order to be worn in its magnificence.
View attachment 580488
The lining must be put back in new condition to have a rare hat to find in this color and state of preservation.
View attachment 580489
The measurements of the Huckel - Novo are: the raw finished brims measure 6 cm, the ribbon matching the color of the felt is 5 cm high and the open crown is 14.5 cm

Daniele, Another super find! My guess is that this French market JHS NOVO Velour is late 1920s to mid 1930s. This is based on the JHS Soft Felts Post WWI Type 8 (see below) which is the same as the above French market JHS Durit Velour. Also it has O V on the paper label which is Omega Velour. French market JHS NOVO Velour all have O V on the paper label. The OV in NOVO might be Omega Velour. Interesting that the color (F. 870) is the same as the above JHS Durit Velour. Are both Velour's from the same source?

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmVqNMVw

 

[marting81]

My newest find...
Berlin Gubener Hutfabrik - Superbe

 

[mayserwegener]

My newest find...
Berlin Gubener Hutfabrik - Superbe


View attachment 580797 View attachment 580798 View attachment 580799 View attachment 580800 View attachment 580801 View attachment 580802 View attachment 580803 View attachment 580806 View attachment 580804 View attachment 580805

Martin, Great find! Really like the over welt brim and classic form! Friedrich W. Schneider Köln had control of the BGH trademark for West Germany post WWII. FWS and other West German distributors made a practice of doing this type of thing. Here is a post WWII FWS BGH.

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...ubener-hutfabrik/?do=findComment&comment=1712

 

[Wangenheim]

I have accumulated a fair number of hats ready to be placed in the Lounge

Brand: Huckel

Felt type or finish: Durit

Size 5 1/2 or 58 cm in Europe or 7 1/4 in the US. The size is probably between 57 and 58 considering the age.

State of preservation: fantastic felt, worn sweatband and non-existent lining, lost during the life of the hat.

Age of the hat: it was probably made between the 1920s and 1940s, but Steve (mayserwegener) will be able to date it much more precisely, given his enormous experience and his unique collection of Central European felts.

Considerations: the hat is a magnificent example of Huckel manufacturing in Czechoslovakia. The felt has a gorgeous color and is beautifully preserved. The ribbon is good, but, like the sweatband, needs work to be ready to use.

The lining must be put back in new condition to have a rare hat to find in this color and state of preservation.

The measurements of the Huckel - Durit are: the raw finished brims measure 5.5 cm, the ribbon matching the color of the felt is 4.5 cm high and the open crown is 14.5 cm

What a gorgeous color! Envy incoming : D

 

[Wangenheim]

Today I have two black Velour hats, that are somewhat compareable, but I think two posts will be cleaner. The first is a G.J.M. Hochland (Bavarian or Austrian?), but not sold as such, just as a standard mall hat, as the sweat band is marked with "Echt Velour", not G.J.M (the same with the lining).



The price of 19 (Mark) was pretty expensive for a mall hat around 1930. But as it is a good Velour with a lining, this is pretty much, what we should expect. Price range for such a hat was about 12-24 Marks. I got a photograph of the first owner from the grandson, who sold the hat, which was shot in 1930, so the hat is from that year or earlier. The man in the picture is a farmer from a village near Augsburg.



There's an interesting thing about the hat: the hat band. It is not just black grosgrain as usual, but much more shiny and tends to look grey and like shining silver. I've seen some of those hats on old photographs, like the one, the seller send me, and wondered, that they really produced hats with such inverted colours. Now I see, it's not a bright colour, but just much more shiny. In many cases the hat band then looks like it is brighter than the felt, not only partially, but on the whole.

The touch of the Velour is compareable with the Hückel prima, which I will post next, also my Hückel Crystall Velour and my Mayser Orion Velour. The stiffness of the felt on the other hand lies between the Mayser Orion (very stiff) and the Hückel Crystall Velour (very soft). On the whole it's pretty much like the Hückel Prima, which I will post next.

Measurements: Size 56, Brim 5.5 cm (side) to 6 cm (front), tall hat band 5.1 cm, crown 10 cm (but that's with a clip inside, which flattens the crown), sweat band 4.8 cm









It's the first hat, that I own, which was not only worn with a clip inside, but the clip is actually there. It's made of aluminum.




Unfortunately the sweat band has an elongated hole.

 

[Wangenheim]

The second hat, as I said, is a Hückel Prima Size 57. The hat band here is only 4 cm, the same as my Hückel Crystall Velour. The brim is 5.8 cm (front) and 5.2 cm (sides), so a little bit more than the Crystall Velour and less than the G.J.M. above. That leads me to think, that it may be early 30s, so not the wide 20s brim and not the ever smaller End-30s-brims. Crown is about 11cm high. Sweat band 5.3 cm. I saw some other Prima's here. Does anybody know more about them?







As stated above, I can't really feel a difference regarding the Velour of this hat to the Mayser Orion, the G.J.M. or the Crystall Velour. It's more about the length of the hair. And in this regard, the Crystall Velour has the longest, the Mayser the shortest and the G.J.M. lies in between together with this Hückel Prima.

The lining is a very simple check, but somehow looks very elegant. The sides of the lining have a different print, namely elongated rhombi, which has the effect of underscoring the depth of the crown, when looking inside. Really nice, how this was detailed.




The last thing, I find special is the sweat band, which is not directly sawn in, but reeded. Up until that hat, I didn't had a soft pre-war hat, that was made this way. Why is it done here?

 

[mayserwegener]

Today I have two black Velour hats, that are somewhat compareable, but I think two posts will be cleaner. The first is a G.J.M. Hochland (Bavarian or Austrian?), but not sold as such, just as a standard mall hat, as the sweat band is marked with "Echt Velour", not G.J.M (the same with the lining).

View attachment 581034

The price of 19 (Mark) was pretty expensive for a mall hat around 1930. But as it is a good Velour with a lining, this is pretty much, what we should expect. Price range for such a hat was about 12-24 Marks. I got a photograph of the first owner from the grandson, who sold the hat, which was shot in 1930, so the hat is from that year or earlier. The man in the picture is a farmer from a village near Augsburg.

View attachment 581044

There's an interesting thing about the hat: the hat band. It is not just black grosgrain as usual, but much more shiny and tends to look grey and like shining silver. I've seen some of those hats on old photographs, like the one, the seller send me, and wondered, that they really produced hats with such inverted colours. Now I see, it's not a bright colour, but just much more shiny. In many cases the hat band then looks like it is brighter than the felt, not only partially, but on the whole.

The touch of the Velour is compareable with the Hückel prima, which I will post next, also my Hückel Crystall Velour and my Mayser Orion Velour. The stiffness of the felt on the other hand lies between the Mayser Orion (very stiff) and the Hückel Crystall Velour (very soft). On the whole it's pretty much like the Hückel Prima, which I will post next.

Measurements: Size 56, Brim 5.5 cm (side) to 6 cm (front), tall hat band 5.1 cm, crown 10 cm (but that's with a clip inside, which flattens the crown), sweat band 4.8 cm

View attachment 581045

View attachment 581040

View attachment 581046

View attachment 581047

It's the first hat, that I own, which was not only worn with a clip inside, but the clip is actually there. It's made of aluminum.

View attachment 581048
View attachment 581041

Unfortunately the sweat band has an elongated hole.

Great find! There is another "G.J.M" from back in 2010. We came to the conclusion that it was "Machland" Austria and not "Hochland".

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/52-g-j-m-machland-hutfabrik/

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/german-austrian-hutmachers.32103/page-31#post-1021922

At the time I didn't have the information I have now so I wasn't able to find anything and it's been 13 years since another "G.J.M." appeared.

There is a municipality in Upper Austria by the name of Mitterkirchen im Machland in the district Perg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitterkirchen_im_Machland

I found a listing "Gerstl, Johann Perg." in the Austrian Hat Industry Guide (1926). I will have to see if I can find anything out about "Johann Gerstl".

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/217-austrian-hat-industry-guide-1926/

Update:

I found a "Martin Gerstl Hutmacher Perg" in listings going back to 1877 but nothing on "Johann Gerstl". It's highly possible "Johann Gerstl" is the son of "Martin Gerstl".

Adressbuch aller Länder der Erde, der Kaufleute, Fabrikanten, Gewerbetreibenden, Gutsbesitzer etc Volume 9 (1905)

 

[mayserwegener]

The second hat, as I said, is a Hückel Prima Size 57. The hat band here is only 4 cm, the same as my Hückel Crystall Velour. The brim is 5.8 cm (front) and 5.2 cm (sides), so a little bit more than the Crystall Velour and less than the G.J.M. above. That leads me to think, that it may be early 30s, so not the wide 20s brim and not the ever smaller End-30s-brims. Crown is about 11cm high. Sweat band 5.3 cm. I saw some other Prima's here. Does anybody know more about them?

View attachment 581065
View attachment 581062
View attachment 581064

View attachment 581063

As stated above, I can't really feel a difference regarding the Velour of this hat to the Mayser Orion, the G.J.M. or the Crystall Velour. It's more about the length of the hair. And in this regard, the Crystall Velour has the longest, the Mayser the shortest and the G.J.M. lies in between together with this Hückel Prima.

The lining is a very simple check, but somehow looks very elegant. The sides of the lining has a different print, namely elongated rhombi, which has the effect of underscoring the depth of the crown, when looking inside. Really nice, how this was detailed.

View attachment 581058
View attachment 581061

The last thing, I find special is the sweat band, which is not directly sawn in, but reeded. Up until that hat, I didn't had a soft pre-war hat, that was made this way. Why is it done here?

View attachment 581060
View attachment 581057

Another great find! I only have one JHS "Prima Velour" that is from the German market and has "Prima Vel." on the Paper Label but it's a rare Trachten style hat.

JHS Soft Felts Post WWI Type 4 Paper Label (possibly mid to later 1930s)

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmVqNe87

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...ückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/page/4/#comment-1556

Your German Market JHS "Prima Velour" has a JHS Soft Felts Post WWI Type 1 Paper Label which is possibly late 1920s to mid 1930s.

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmVvski4

The other JHS "Prima Velour" that have Paper Label photos are from the French Market and they have "A V" (Alpha Velour) on their Paper Labels.

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...tfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=2375

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...tfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=2380

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...tfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=2971

The only other German market JHS "Prima Velour" I have record of unfortunately doesn't have a Paper Label photo but might be from the same time period as your JHS "Prima Velour".

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...tfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=1110

I don't have any information on how JHS Velour types were determined. There is a wide variance within the same Velour types that could be based on time period, market, or marketing deception .

 

[Wangenheim]

Great find! There is another "G.J.M" from back in 2010. We came to the conclusion that it was "Machland" Austria and not "Hochland".

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/52-g-j-m-machland-hutfabrik/

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/german-austrian-hutmachers.32103/page-31#post-1021922

At the time I didn't have the information I have now so I wasn't able to find anything and it's been 13 years since another "G.J.M." appeared.

There is a municipality in Upper Austria by the name of Mitterkirchen im Machland in the district Perg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitterkirchen_im_Machland

I found a listing "Gerstl, Johann Perg." in the Austrian Hat Industry Guide (1926). I will have to see if I can find anything out about "Johann Gerstl".

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/217-austrian-hat-industry-guide-1926/

Update:

I found a "Martin Gerstl Hutmacher Perg" in listings going back to 1877 but nothing on "Johann Gerstl". It's highly possible "Johann Gerstl" is the son of "Martin Gerstl".

Adressbuch aller Länder der Erde, der Kaufleute, Fabrikanten, Gewerbetreibenden, Gutsbesitzer etc Volume 9 (1905)

Only one other? Interesting. The picture, that you had back then was not very sharp. Maybe they where located in Machland and the "M" stands for Machland, but my hat definitely has the label "Hochland" (and as far as I can see, it is the same as back then). I have a closer picture here: As you can see, there is no doubt. But of course that doesn't say anything about the M in G.J.M.

The whole logo says: Marke Hochland, ges.(etzlich) gesch.(ützt), and what I first hoped, a town name. But as I looked closer, it's just: Warenzeichen, so "gesetzlich geschützes Warenzeichen". But if so, maybe you could find it under registrated trademarks of the time. You did this before several times as I remeber!

But I would guess, this is more than a single private hat maker. Especially because this was sold as no-name. I would guess it's a mall hat. And therefore a bigger hat maker. Because a private hat maker would not have used his Name, but hidden it under the sweat band.

 

[Wangenheim]

Another great find! I only have one JHS "Prima Velour" that is from the German market and has "Prima Vel." on the Paper Label but it's a rare Trachten style hat.

JHS Soft Felts Post WWI Type 4 Paper Label (possibly mid to later 1930s)

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmVqNe87

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/page/4/#comment-1556

Your German Market JHS "Prima Velour" has a JHS Soft Felts Post WWI Type 1 Paper Label which is possibly late 1920s to mid 1930s.

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmVvski4

The other JHS "Prima Velour" that have Paper Label photos are from the French Market and they have "A V" (Alpha Velour) on their Paper Labels.

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=2375

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=2380

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=2971

The only other German market JHS "Prima Velour" I have record of unfortunately doesn't have a Paper Label photo but might be from the same time period as your JHS "Prima Velour".

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=1110

I don't have any information on how JHS Velour types were determined. There is a wide variance within the same Velour types that could be based on time period, market, or marketing deception .

That's great information! So my guess early 30s was not so bad and it could be earlier. The only thing why I doubt it is earlier, is the thin hat band. That doesn't look much 20s to me. But of course it's only one criterion.

Ah, ok, the others are not German (The last one ist pretty much the same as mine, including the dark brown sweat band). Because, what I forgot to say is, that this hat was also bought by a farmer, this time in Altenmark (as the liner says), which is Altenmark an der Alz, just north of the Chiemsee (there is another in Austria).

 

[mayserwegener]

Only one other? Interesting. The picture, that you had back then was not very sharp. Maybe they where located in Machland and the "M" stands for Machland, but my hat definitely has the label "Hochland" (and as far as I can see, it is the same as back then). I have a closer picture here: As you can see, there is no doubt. But of course that doesn't say anything about the M in G.J.M.

The whole logo says: Marke Hochland, ges.(etzlich) gesch.(ützt), and what I first hoped, a town name. But as I looked closer, it's just: Warenzeichen, so "gesetzlich geschützes Warenzeichen". But if so, maybe you could find it under registrated trademarks of the time. You did this before several times as I remeber!

View attachment 581102

But I would guess, this is more than a single private hat maker. Especially because this was sold as no-name. I would guess it's a mall hat. And therefore a bigger hat maker. Because a private hat maker would not have used his Name, but hidden it under the sweat band.

It does look like an "H" as I first thought back in 2010 but went with the consensus. It's definitely the same Paper Label type. There is a Hat and Cap on the Paper Label so that might point to a distributor / mail order business because those are two different types of manufacturing. I will see what I can find regarding "Hochland'.

 

[mayserwegener]

That's great information! So my guess early 30s was not so bad and it could be earlier. The only thing why I doubt it is earlier, is the thin hat band. That doesn't look much 20s to me. But of course it's only one criterion.

Ah, ok, the others are not German (The last one ist pretty much the same as mine, including the dark brown sweat band). Because, what I forgot to say is, that this hat was also bought by a farmer, this time in Altenmark (as the liner says), which is Altenmark an der Alz, just north of the Chiemsee (there is another in Austria).

It's really hard to know the dating from the mid 1920s (this is when these Velour Quality types were introduced). I am fairly certain that the "Post WWI Type 4 Paper Label" are later 1930s possibly very early 1940s when JHS switched to war production. JHS had 3 factories: Neutitschein (today Nový Jičín) - headquarters (became TONAK), Racibórz (in Czech Ratiboř, in German Ratibor)- today a part of Poland, and Skoczów(in Czech Skočov)- today a part of Poland (became PolkaP). Czechoslovakia put sanctions on Germany and Austria so that is the reason JHS opened the Ratibor factory.

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...utfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=961

The post WWI French and American market JHS Hats are all marked made in Czechoslovakia so have to assume they came from Neutitschein / Nový Jičín main factory. The Germany market JHS Soft and Stiff Felt Hats have no designation of country of origin so there is no way to know for certain where they came from.

You can't use form and dimensions to determine time period. Here is a photo from Tokyo Exhibition (1928) and you can see the form and dimension of the Soft Felt Hat on the boxes.

Similar to these.

 

[Wangenheim]

It's really hard to know the dating from the mid 1920s (this is when these Velour Quality types were introduced). I am fairly certain that the "Post WWI Type 4 Paper Label" are later 1930s possibly very early 1940s when JHS switched to war production. JHS had 3 factories: Neutitschein (today Nový Jičín) - headquarters (became TONAK), Racibórz (in Czech Ratiboř, in German Ratibor)- today a part of Poland, and Skoczów(in Czech Skočov)- today a part of Poland (became PolkaP). Czechoslovakia put sanctions on Germany and Austria so that is the reason JHS opened the Ratibor factory.

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=961

The post WWI French and American market JHS Hats are all marked made in Czechoslovakia so have to assume they came from Neutitschein / Nový Jičín main factory. The Germany market JHS Soft and Stiff Felt Hats have no designation of country of origin so there is no way to know for certain where they came from.

You can't use form and dimensions to determine time period. Here is a photo from Tokyo Exhibition (1928) and you can see the form and dimension of the Soft Felt Hat on the boxes.

Similar to these.

That indeed is the same illustration. And at the first glance this seems to be a late 30s hat with a small brim. But if you look how far it protrudes on the left, it's clear, this is pretty much. It's just the arkward perspective that fools us. And secondly, it's a bad way to date something from an illustration, because illustrations at the time often had nothing to do with the product. For example car illustrations: The Simson Supra, a 1930 car, had a catalogue illustration with the proportions of a Bugatti Typ 41 Royal, the biggest and most elegant car at the time. The Supra was far away from that by all means. Also the illustrations of Mercedes Benz e.g. depicted a Benz 320 like it was a 540 K.

But if you watch hundreds of movies from the era (cinema and daily life), like I do, it's clear, that certain types of hats were around in certain times and that some hats were very, very rare in certain time periods. Not impossible, but of course one can determine the date by the shape of the hat. It's very rare, that this is misleading.

 

[mayserwegener]

That indeed is the same illustration. And at the first glance this seems to be a late 30s hat with a small brim. But if you look how far it protrudes on the left, it's clear, this is pretty much. It's just the arkward perspective that fools us. And secondly, it's a bad way to date something from an illustration, because illustrations at the time often had nothing to do with the product. For example car illustrations: The Simson Supra, a 1930 car, had a catalogue illustration with the proportions of a Bugatti Typ 41 Royal, the biggest and most elegant car at the time. The Supra was far away from that by all means. Also the illustrations of Mercedes Benz e.g. depicted a Benz 320 like it was a 540 K.

But if you watch hundreds of movies from the era (cinema and daily life), like I do, it's clear, that certain types of hats were around in certain times and that some hats were very, very rare in certain time periods. Not impossible, but of course one can determine the date by the shape of the hat. It's very rare, that this is misleading.

The illustration is from a photo. This JHS "Flexible" "Seal Velour" is similar to the Hat on the Hat Box and Mirror photo. It has a similar Hat Band and the Brim is 2 1/4 inches. This Velour had a Crease Clip at one time and it has a 5 1/2 inch Open Crown.

I gave a time period (not just late 1920s) and it's just a guess because there is no way to know for sure because of lack of information and nobody here (most likely anywhere) has a much information as I do on JHS. I also have a very large collection of JHS Soft Felt Hats, Stiff Felt Hats and Silk Top Hats.

Also Reeded Sweatbands are commonly found on JHS Soft and Stiff Felt Hats. This is a pre WWI JHS Velour made for the American Market has a Reeded Sweatband.

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=556

 

[Wangenheim]

The illustration is from a photo. This JHS "Flexible" "Seal Velour" is similar to the Hat on the Hat Box and Mirror photo. It has a similar Hat Band and the Brim is 2 1/4 inches. This Velour had a Crease Clip at one time and it has a 5 1/2 inch Open Crown.

I gave a time period (not just late 1920s) and it's just a guess because there is no way to know for sure because of lack of information and nobody here (most likely anywhere) has a much information as I do on JHS. I also have a very large collection of JHS Soft Felt Hats, Stiff Felt Hats and Silk Top Hats.

Also Reeded Sweatbands are commonly found on JHS Soft and Stiff Felt Hats. This is a pre WWI JHS Velour made for the American Market has a Reeded Sweatband.

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=556

And what do you want to tell me with these measurements? I myself have hats with these. They are totally in line with this "transition period". What about "But of course it's only one criterion" are you not able to understand? Is this some kind of: I want to misunderstand you, so I can tell you more about my expertise? Or do you really want to bring the discussion foreward? I really don't know from these kind of intentional misreadings.

About the reeded sweat bands. I know that these exist. I asked, why they were somewhat rarer in certain time periods and why they were used. But you don't answer this, you just tell me, what I already know and with not a single word suggested, that I don't. So why again do you think, you have to tell me obvious things. And this by the way is a common theme with your answers. You shouldn't assume, that people don't know a thing because they don't tell others in every second post, that they have this or this expertise, sometimes ask question and so forth. It's just the way of normal discussion.

I appreciate, that you show your collection here, and I have seen a certain amount of this. You don't have to tell me that either. But if you think, you can determine the distribution of certain hat models throughtout the population by just reading catalogues, which represent every model that is available, but were of course not evenly sold, or by illustrated ads, or by the hats, that we all have as a kind of leftover from the older days, you are badly mistaken. To have a glance at this, you have to study historical film material of course.

 

[marting81]

BGH - ?
(Berlin-Gubener-Hutfabrik?)

No paper labels or else...

The book i got again... So i have one to give away if someone interested.