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German & Austrian Hutmachers

Steve1857

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,857
Location
Denmark
Hi Matt. Steve, Stefan, and Panos have made same excellent replies to your VEB. As usual, Steve's website is invaluable.

The only thing I can add is to say mine is definitely fur. If there is any wool in it, it's minimal.

As can be seen in the attached photo, the liner is glued in and there's a wider than usual reinforcer label where the sweat bow stitching is. There maybe a signature there, but it's indecipherable.

A big thanks to Panos for this one. He threw it in the mix with a bunch of hats I bought from him earlier this year. Loungers always seem to go above and beyond :) IMG_20210514_165730.jpg

Hah, what a coincidence!
I had already wondered who this "Chris" is! ;)
Thank you for responding so sympathetically,
especially since it is now already the second VEB Guben,
which "does not want to come to you"!
Was yours also from a wool-fur mixture?
 
Messages
17,514
Location
Maryland
I'd have to dig it up to refresh my memory a bit, but as I recall it was likely a mix (not as refined as a pure fur felt).
Stefan, I to
Hah - that's it! Thanks for showing: really nice hat in great condition, Stefan!
Interesting, that the liners of Panos's/Steve's and your's show different styles/names.
Is it a 100 % fur felt hat - like Steve said most of them were made of after WW II?
Because maybe I'm wrong with my assessment of wool-fur mix?

I took a look at Panos's hat (posted above) and it appears to be Wool or maybe a mix. I know later they made Fur Felt Soft Felts. I can't see the same detail with yours probably due to the darker color.
 
Messages
18,446
Location
Nederland
Stefan, I to


I took a look at Panos's hat (posted above) and it appears to be Wool or maybe a mix. I know later they made Fur Felt Soft Felts. I can't see the same detail with yours probably due to the darker color.
I looked through my original pictures and made this crop.

BP2B1623b.jpg


I found the hat and it's still hard to tell. I tend to think it's a furfelt even though it's fairly heavy at 145 grams and the hand is not as refined as other furfelts I have. But truth be told it's better than I remembered and gave it credit for.
 
Messages
17,514
Location
Maryland
I looked through my original pictures and made this crop.

View attachment 334739

I found the hat and it's still hard to tell. I tend to think it's a furfelt even though it's fairly heavy at 145 grams and the hand is not as refined as other furfelts I have. But truth be told it's better than I remembered and gave it credit for.
Stefan, Thank you for posting the additional photo. Highly possible it Fur Felt. It might also have casein in the mix. I don't have any production information from this time but I am sure they had to cut corners due the economic situation in East Germany.

Thank you, Steve & Steve & Stefan:
I took a second (and third) look on the felt and here some (hopefully better) fotos.
I still think, it is a mix - theres some wool in and you can see single straight hair popping out.
41194537sr.jpg

41194538yb.jpg

41194539st.jpg

41194540ys.jpg
Matt, Thank you for the additional photos. It's possible there is some wool but the straight hairs could be guard hairs. The finish seems more coarse / rough than Stefan's hat. As I mentioned above their could also be an adjunct like casein in mix.

How does your Grandfather's VHG "Magnet" compare? It's designated as "Prima Haarhut" which usually means Fur Felt Hat.

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...e-hutwerke-guben/?do=findComment&comment=1895
 

Mean Eyed Matt

One Too Many
Messages
1,142
Location
Germany
The felt is rougher and heavier than most/all of my other soft fur felts, but it's other than my real woolies, too! The VHG Magnet is (in my memories, cause it's not here) a completely different thing: lighter, thinner and smoother like a 'normal' real fur felt - but I will check twice.

I have not much experiences with mixed felts, but I tend to say, Stefan's and my hat are the same model and made of fur felt, that contains either some wool or nearly 'all the hair' of a rabbit - not only the soft 'wool fiber' under the guard hair - or maybe both. So I think, Steve, you're right with the guard hair. When I gave the hat much steam to form it, these long hair popped out and I had the feeling the felt got stiffer. Is this caused by the casein? What's the use of this adjunction?
 
Last edited:
Messages
17,514
Location
Maryland
The felt is rougher and heavier than most/all of my other soft fur felts, but it's other than my real woolies, too! The VHG Magnet is (in my memories, cause it's not here) a completely different thing: lighter, thinner and smoother like a 'normal' real fur felt - but I will check twice.

I have not much experiences with mixed felts, but I tend to say, Stefan's and my hat are the same model and made of fur felt, that contains either some wool or nearly 'all the hair' of a rabbit - not only the soft 'wool fiber' under the guard hair - or maybe both. So I think, Steve, you're right with the guard hair. When I gave the hat much steam to form it, I had the feeling the felt got stiffer. Is this caused by the casein? What's the use of this adjunction?
Matt, The only mention of mixing of Wool and Fur types I have come across are in late 1800s early 1900s Austrian and German Hat catalogs. I have not come across the mention in the German and Austrian production information I have in my possession. I am not sure if I would be able to detect such a Wool and Fur mix. As you mentioned it could be a lower grade of Fur Felt (I have a good amount of information on this topic). I think the application of steam might have activated the Felt stiffeners (shellac). I know that Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik S. J. Fraenkel Wien at the time the factory closed (1972) used 6 - 10 % Casein fiber.

Here is a microscopic image of Casein fiber.

51181106474_459e59f8b0_b.jpg
 
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Messages
18,446
Location
Nederland
Here's a new find. Shopping through vintage shops is usually the way I find hats, but with the restrictions only partially lifted you can find yourself standing in line for a long time waiting to get in. Not for me. Two shops were without line and I managed to find this hat in one of them.
Wegener Extra in green (in my defense: I thought it was grey when I bought it;)). Size 59 with the bound brim at 6,5cm and the crown at 10,5 cm at the center dent. Lovely thin felt with a nice hand to it. Quite light at only 102 grams. Except for the small size label no other label inside the hat. Liner is still stitched in, so likely early to mid-fifties.

wegener extra green_01.jpg
wegener extra green_02.jpg
wegener extra green_03.jpg
wegener extra green_04.jpg
wegener extra green_05.jpg
wegener extra green_06.jpg
wegener extra green_07.jpg
wegener extra green_08.jpg
wegener extra green_09.jpg
wegener extra green_10.jpg
 

Mean Eyed Matt

One Too Many
Messages
1,142
Location
Germany
Matt, The only mention of mixing of Wool and Fur types I have come across are in late 1800s early 1900s Austrian and German Hat catalogs. I have not come across the mention in the German and Austrian production information I have in my possession. I am not sure if I would be able to detect such a Wool and Fur mix. As you mentioned it could be a lower grade of Fur Felt (I have a good amount of information on this topic). I think the application of steam might have activated the Felt stiffeners (shellac). I know that Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik S. J. Fraenkel Wien at the time the factory closed (1972) used 6 - 10 % Casein fiber.

Here is a microscopic image of Casein fiber.

51181106474_459e59f8b0_b.jpg

Thank you, Steve. So now I got it: first thought of an addition of liquid Casein as a stiffener - like the shellac you're certainly right with! But never heard of synthetic Casein fiber! Great info, Steve!
 
Messages
17,514
Location
Maryland
Thank you, Steve. So now I got it: first thought of an addition of liquid Casein as a stiffener - like the shellac you're certainly right with! But never heard of synthetic Casein fiber! Great info, Steve!
Matt, My guess is Casein fiber or synthetic fiber was used more than people here think. I have records of the last production processes for Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik and time and cost were a major focus (which in the end forced them out of business). This is the type of information that is missing from the historical record.

Quality Meteor, Casual Men's Smooth Finish Hat (1972, prior to close of Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik, + translation issues)


51183279404_28c6aeb52f_o.jpg

51181808522_6452f620b8_o.jpg
 
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Mean Eyed Matt

One Too Many
Messages
1,142
Location
Germany
To confirm Stefan's opinion about the early Wegener hats: here's a top one!
Beige-grey ("leer PN" - City Leer?) Wegener "Seal": 56 with a 10 cm crown (centre dent)
and a 5.5 cm brim with double stitching. The suede-like felt finish is simply fantastic
(but Stefan and Steve know that felt better): The hat is the lightest fur felt specimen
I've ever had in my hands - unfortunately I don't have a scale here to weigh it.
The hat is in fantastic NOS condition - even the externe paper size tag is still there,
on which the price is handwritten: 19.40 D-Mark I think. The stretchy wind cord
is made of rubber (I think) and wrapped in ribbon colour - it is still flexible!
The lining is still sewn in - so early/mid 50s, you say.

The hat is a discovery of Panos and was on his wish list: Congratulations on this fantastic hat!

41208865xs.jpg

41208862de.jpg

41208861vs.jpg

41208853vl.jpg

41208860jc.jpg

41208851nk.jpg

41208849tq.jpg

41208855qs.jpg

41208857hd.jpg

41208856jt.jpg

41208859tg.jpg

41208854qv.jpg

41209976gs.jpg


in sunlight
41208847if.jpg

41208845rf.jpg
 
Last edited:
Messages
18,446
Location
Nederland
To confirm Stefan's opinion about the early Wegener hats: here's a top one!
Beige-grey ("leer PN" - City Leer?) Wegener "Seal": 56 with a 10 cm crown (centre dent)
and a 5.5 cm brim with double stitching. The suede-like felt finish is simply fantastic
(but Stefan and Steve know that felt better): The hat is the lightest fur felt specimen
I've ever had in my hands - unfortunately I don't have a scale here to weigh it.
The hat is in fantastic NOS condition - even the externe paper size tag is still there,
on which the price is handwritten: 19.40 D-Mark I think. The stretchy wind cord
is made of rubber (I think) and wrapped in ribbon colour - it is still flexible!
The lining is still sewn in - so early/mid 50s, you say.

The hat is a discovery of Panos and was on his wish list: Congratulations on this fantastic hat!

41208865xs.jpg

41208862de.jpg

41208861vs.jpg

41208853vl.jpg

41208860jc.jpg

41208851nk.jpg

41208849tq.jpg

41208855qs.jpg

41208857hd.jpg

41208856jt.jpg

41208859tg.jpg

41208854qv.jpg

41209976gs.jpg


in sunlight
41208847if.jpg

41208845rf.jpg
Fabulous hat, Matt. Great find in that condition.
 

Mean Eyed Matt

One Too Many
Messages
1,142
Location
Germany

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